The Michigan DNR's Wildtalk Podcast

Northern Michigan habitat work, pintails, deer, deer and more deer

• Michigan Department of Natural Resources Wildlife Division • Season 7 • Episode 11

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In this episode of the Wildtalk Podcast, we talk to Scott Eggeman about all things habitat in the Northern Lower Peninsula region of the state, fly away with a discussion about northern pintails, and we wrap up the episode with a lengthy chat about Michigan deer and deer management. 

Episode Hosts: Rachel Lincoln and Eric Hilliard
Producer/editor: Eric Hilliard

Questions or comments about the show? Contact the DNR Wildlife Division at 517-284-9453 (WILD) or email dnr-wildlife@michigan.gov.

Eric/Announcer:
The Michigan DNR Hunt Fish app is your digital connection to all things hunting and fishing in Michigan. Buy, store, and display your hunting and fishing licenses. Check your points and chances for elk and bear. Apply for the draw and view drawing results. Access all the hunting and fishing regulations. View your hunter safety certificate and report your harvest all from within the Michigan DNR Hunt Fish app. Just click the app banner at the top of the page for download instructions @michigan.gov/hunting. You know what that sound means? It's time for the Michigan DNR'S WildTalk podcast. Welcome to the WildTalk podcast where representatives from the DNR'S Wildlife Division chew the fat and shoot the scat about all things habitat, feathers, and fur. With insights, interviews and your questions answered on the air, you'll get a better picture of what's happening in the world of wildlife here in the great state of Michigan.

Rachel:
Welcome to the WildTalk podcast. This is your host, Rachel Lincoln and I am flying solo this episode as Eric Hilliard is out this month. We've lined up another great episode for you. Joining us to provide a field update from the Northern Lower Peninsula will be Scott Eggeman field operations manager. And then we'll shift gears to our favorite topic this time of year, the whitetailed deer. November is an important month in our neck of the woods as it's the start of the firearm deer season. And to make sure you're feeling ready for November 15th, the firearm deer season opener will be bringing on our DNR deer biologist Chad Fedewa and Sam Courtney to give a season outlook and answer some of our questions about recent deer diseases, deer management, and what to expect in the deer woods this fall. Up next, we'll fly into what's happening during this waterfowl season and learn a little bit more about the Northern Pintail Duck. And of course, somewhere in this episode, there'll be a chance to win the one and only WildTalk podcast camp mug. But before we dive into the podcast, let's hear a word from our forest.

Announcer 2:
Trees provide for the wellbeing of our state. That's why we work so hard to keep our forest healthy and abundant so wildlife has a home and so do people so that there's clean air and water for everyone. And so Michigan's economy can be as strong as the trees that support it because every branch of forestry ensures that future generations will always have a tree for life and forests for a lifetime. To learn how sustainable forestry benefits your life, visit michigan.gov/forestsforalifetime.

Rachel:
Welcome back to the WildTalk podcast. Today we have Scott Eggeman, the field operations manager for the Wildlife Division's Northern Lower Peninsula. Thanks for joining us, Scott.

Scott:
Thank you for having me.

Rachel:
Well, what kind of projects are the Northern Lower Peninsula Wildlife Division staff working on this time of year?

Scott:
Well, we have projects and then we have hunting seasons. It is the fall right now, so we just wrapped up the first part of the elk hunt, so that mainly covers September. It's broken up into three four day hunts. We had some very warm dry weather conditions. Most of us in the state have been experiencing that, so that made hunting conditions difficult. We did harvest 59 elk. We had a hundred hunters on the ground, a hundred licenses. There was a lot of opportunity out there. 25 bulls were harvested, 33 cows were harvested and one calf, so it was successful given the conditions. It's a very busy hunt. It's a lot of work for us. We moved away from infield check this year and went to check stations, so hunters were bringing elk to us. We have a little bit of a lull in October. We do surveillance for bovine TB and the northeast portion of the lower peninsula, and we also do CWD surveillance.
That's kind of a moving window right now. The last two years, including this year, it's been in the northern lower region. So we'll be continuing that work this year. And that's again, another big lift for staff. They do an excellent job of coordinating everything. It's kind of impressive to be honest with you. October gives us an opportunity to get back in the field and do some habitat work. Most of our biologists and especially our wildlife technicians really enjoy that. It's kind of their time to be at peace and do some of their favorite work. So they're out there putting in burn lines, so we'll be doing prescribed burns in the spring. They put the fire lines in now and again, a lot of that work is to reduce some of the woody vegetation encroachment that continues to come in after three or four years of no activity.
And it also stimulates some of the grasses and Forbes and improve some of the forage quality for deer and elk. We've got a couple of different special projects going on. Angela Kujawa, is our Atlanta biologist and she's put together a statewide working group working on American Martin. She is working with different agencies, representatives from the forest service representatives from the different tribes, and they're trying to kind of coordinate a better way to manage for both habitat and populations across the state and really just developing a better way to share information and share data at this point. Both of those things are critical starting points if you're doing work to try to improve habitat and improve range for American Martin. On the Northwestern side, we cover the Beaver Island Archipelago. Jeremy Wood is our biologist out of Gaylord and he covers the islands we've been working with as part of the Northern Lake, Michigan Island collaborative and really trying to get a handle on the amount of work to do out there, what we want to prioritize as a region and as a division. So Jeremy's done a great job of meeting some of the partners, getting out there and understanding some of the issues, really unique places, the islands. He's doing the best he can to represent people of the state and represent some of the special places that Michigan has.

Rachel:
The Beaver Island Archipelago certainly being one of those that's really important work that he's doing. What's up next on the horizon? I know we've got firearm deer season. Anything else to look forward to?

Scott:
We start our second portion of the elk hunt in December. That's again, another heavy lift following the deer season, but it's usually a really fun hunt. The hunters really enjoy that. It's a little easier when there's usually typically some snow on the ground up here. It gives the hunters the opportunity to find tracks and also find blood if they hit an animal. Following that, we get our holiday break and everybody will be looking forward to that right after that, we start prepping for spring work. It's a little bit more of our meeting and planning season, and once March hits, March to April, we really start hitting the habitat work pretty hard, get back into our burn season and it's just guns-a-blazing again.

Rachel:
All right, Scott, well, we appreciate you taking the time to join us and reporting on the wildlife happenings in your neck of the woods.

Scott:
Well, thank you Rachel. I appreciate you having me.

Rachel:
All right, folks, you will want to stick around because all things feathers is coming up next.

Eric/Announcer:
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Rachel:
This episode we're taking a closer look at one of the most graceful waterfowl species you'll see out on the wetlands, the Northern Pintail. These elegant birds are known for their long slender necks and distinct pointed tails, which give them their name. The Northern Pintail is a medium sized dabbling duck, and if you spot a male, you'll recognize him right away. Males in their breeding plumage have rich brown heads and striking white necks that stretch down their chest while their long tapering blacktails are really hard to miss. On the other hand, females have more of a muted modeled brown feathering that helps them blend in with surroundings. Both males and females share those distinctive blue gray bills with gray legs. Now when it comes to identification that long sharp tail, the male, is a dead giveaway and they look so sleek in flight with that pointed profile. Females might be a little bit trickier to spot, but if you catch a glimpse of their wings, you'll notice the greenish brown section of the feathers.
Now both males and females have that feature, which can help you spot them even in a group of other ducks. Northern pintails are drawn to open wetlands, places like shallow marshes, potholes and prairies, lakes and ponds, and they need the shallow water with grassy cover, which makes these areas perfect for them. You'll also find them in coastal estuaries or flooded agricultural fields, especially during migration and winter. Northern pintails breed across the northern United States and Canada favoring the famous prairie pothole region for nesting. They're among the first ducks to migrate south in the fall, often leaving ahead of other species. Pintails feed by dabbling, which is why they're called dabbling ducks. Dabbling is the action of dipping their heads into the water to eat seeds, aquatic plants, and small invertebrates. And when they migrate, they also take advantage of flooded fields while munching on grains like rice and wheat.
In the winter, these birds migrate to the southern United States, Mexico, and even Central America with sub traveling as far as South America. Pintails are admired not only for their beauty, but also for their agility in flight. They're truly a site to behold both on water and in the sky. For their striking plumage, the Northern Pintail was featured on this year's federal duck stamp. Now, every waterfall hunter is familiar with the duck stamp, but it plays a much larger role in conservation than many people realize. So what exactly is the federal duck stamp? Well, it's officially called the Migratory Bird Hunting and Conservation Stamp, and it's been around since 1934. Now the stamp costs $25 and it acts as both a hunting license and a major conservation tool. If you're 16 or older and planning to hunt migratory waterfall in the United States, you're going to be required to buy one of these stamps.
And while it's essential for hunters, the impact of the federal duck stamp goes far beyond just hunting. It's one of the most effective ways to conserve wetlands, which are crucial ecosystems for all kinds of wildlife. About 98% of the money from the duck stamp sale goes directly towards conservation efforts, which protect habitat for migratory birds by buying and leasing wetlands primarily for the National Wildlife Refuge System. Over the years, this has helped protect more than 6 million acres of wetlands across the country. Habitat that not only benefits from waterfowl, but also supports countless other wildlife species, including some that are threatened or endangered. Now, there's also some cool tradition behind the duck stamp. So each year the US Fish and Wildlife Service holds a nationwide art contest to choose the waterfall painting that will be featured on the next stamp. Contestants can submit their artwork to be featured on the stamp, and winning this contest is a huge honor for wildlife artists.
The artwork becomes a real part of conservation history adding to the stamp's legacy. This year across my own social media pages, I did see some contestants submitting their artwork and explaining how the process for submitting your artwork and the judging of the artwork for the stamp, they were documenting this whole process. And it is so much more in depth than you would ever realize. The logistics of this contest, the artistic talent that's in this contest, it is really amazing to see. It really just makes you appreciate stamps, frankly, what goes into making these stamps and how talented people are and how devoted they are to submit entries for this contest every year. And I really recommend you do a little internet sleuthing to learn more about this duck stamp contest and some of the other entries that were submitted because it really is amazing. So kudos to all of the artists that put in pretty much a year's worth of effort into a single painting to submit to be on a postage stamp.
It's really spectacular. The contest is open to all and artwork must be submitted between June 1st and August 15th. There are some very specific rules and requirements for entries, and you can find all of that information at the US Fish and Wildlife Services Federal duck stamp website. Now, even if you're not a hunter, buying a duck stamp is a great way to support wetland conservation. They're popular with collectors and wildlife enthusiasts, but they will also grant you access to any national wildlife refuge that charges an entrance fee. So whether you are a hunter, a wildlife lover, or just someone who wants to help preserve our wetlands and wildlife, picking up a federal duck stamp is a simple yet powerful way to make a difference. To receive the stamp, you can purchase them through the US Postal Service and the US Fish and Wildlife Service or through the Michigan DNR at customer service centers.
But be aware if you purchase the stamp through DNR vendors, you will not receive the actual stamp until March of 2025. And since the waterfowl hunting season is open, we are of course going to talk about some of the best spots for fall waterfall hunting, and that is Michigan's managed waterfall hunt areas, which are known as wetland wonders. These areas are not only great for hunting, but they're also incredible for wildlife viewing and outdoor recreation throughout the year. So what exactly is a managed waterfall hunt area? These special areas are designed to provide prime habitat for waterfall. So if you are interested in waterfall hunting, we do recommend you check out these places. If you're planning to go there to go hunting, there are some special rules you'll need to know about. As managed waterfall hunt areas have shell limits restrictions on shot size and even limits on hunting party sizes.
You can learn all about wetland wonders and how to best hunt those areas. On our website at michigan.gov/wetlandwonders. When it comes to gear, there are a few must haves if you're heading out to hunt in these areas. Waiters are essential and you'll want to also bring decoys, calls, and if possible, a furry four-legged friend that is good at retrieving. Many hunters also use small boats or motors to navigate these wetlands. A common question we receive is how do you actually hunt at one of these wetland wonders? Well, on certain days of the week, a local drawing is held for a free hunting zone permit. So the days of the draw will vary from each wetland wonder, but it's meant to be a very fair system that randomly draws hunters and assigns you a location on the area to hunt in. That way, you have the space all to yourself.
And while it may seem a little daunting or complex to figure out the draw system and to make sure you have the right equipment, the best way to start learning the process is just to go check it out for yourself. You can check out drawing times and drawing dates online on the waterfowl website. And for any young hunters out there or parents of young hunters, there are special youth priority draws. Including youth only hunts on opening day afternoons and at various times throughout the season. There are also special hunting dates for veterans or for active duty US military personnel. The veterans drawings will take place from November 10th through the 12th and managed waterfall areas across the southern part of the state. To participate veterans and active duty military personnel will need to bring proper documentation and you can learn more about those specifics on the website at michigan.gov/wetlandwonders.
As for who's eligible for these hunts, single hunters must be veterans or active duty personnel. If you're hunting in a group, at least one person in the party must be a veteran for your group to be eligible for the veterans' preference drawing. So if you've served or are currently serving, this is a great chance to get outdoors and take advantage of these special hunts. And lastly, while these daily drawings happen regularly, there are times late in the season when they might be canceled due to extreme weather and low hunter turnout. Area managers will post any changes at least two days in advance. But if you're unsure, a quick call to the area headquarters will help you confirm. So, if you're looking for a first class waterfall hunting experience across the state this fall, managed waterfall hunt areas are the place to be. And with a bit of planning and the right gear, you'll be set for an exciting and successful hunt. Stick around because all things fur is coming up next.

Eric/Announcer:
Are you looking for some last minute gifts or stocking stuffers for those special hunters in your life? Do you want to see smiles wider than the rack of a monster elk on Christmas morning? Then buy them some entries for the DNR'S Pure Michigan hunt and let visions of a hunting prize package and hunting licenses for elk, bear, spring and fall turkey, antlerless deer, and first pick of at a managed waterfowl hunt area dance in their heads. Forget about the sugar plums and visit mi.gov/pmh or your local hunting license retailer to buy.

Rachel:
Today we are diving into all things Michigan deer with our two special guests. We are thrilled to have Chad Fedewa, our acting deer specialist and Sam Courtney, our new deer biologist joining us. Chad and Sam, thank you both for being here. We are very excited to hear your insights on deer management, regulation changes, and some of the challenges facing Michigan's deer populations. Now, you both are relatively new to these positions, so can you each share a little bit about your background and your role in managing Michigan's deer?

Sam:
Sure, I'll go first. So I'm Sam Courtney. I'm from the thumb of Michigan. After graduating, I spent about five years or so jumping around the US working different wildlife jobs with a variety of species, but most of it was deer, elk, and moose. I went back for my master's degree in wildlife biology and disease ecology at Michigan State in 2021. And then I took a job as a deer biologist for the state of West Virginia in 2023. And at the same time I completed my master's degree. So then July I moved back to Michigan, started this position as the deer biologist. So it's a statewide position, but I operate out of the Gaylord Customer Service Center, and a lot of what I do is more data driven. So I perform a lot of analysis on all of our deer related data. And I also provide this supporting information for any questions or data requests that come in. But I also help with outreach and community engagement media interviews. I'm still new in the role, but as I get more settled in, I'll continue to get more involved and assist Chad Stewart and Chad Fedewa in whatever capacity they really need help in.

Chad:
And I'm Chad Fedewa. I have been with the Michigan DNR Wildlife Division for 16 years. This is actually my 17th deer season with the DNR. I've spent my whole career in southern Michigan as a wildlife technician and wildlife biologist, mainly around the Lansing area. The last six months or so I've been acting and filling in as the deer specialist role while Chad Stewart is working in another role temporarily as well. So kind of different than what I've done in the past. This is more of a statewide role, obviously doing a lot of policy and regulation work with deer, elk, and moose and working with the Natural Resources Commission, working with the public a lot, doing a lot of media interviews. Deer are obviously a very popular topic this time of year. Happy to be in the role. It's been an interesting experience and should be finishing up with this temporary role in the next few months and we'll see how it goes from there.

Rachel:
Well, we're certainly happy you both are able to join us. Let's just jump into it. Could you start by giving us an overview of the current state of Michigan's deer population? Are there any particular trends we are seeing, currently?

Chad:
We are, and as we talk about deer populations, it's a very broad topic. Deer population trends are different in different parts of the state. So if you go from the south to the very north, there's a lot of variation. But overall, sort of the general pattern has been too few deer or lower deer numbers in much of the Upper Peninsula in the last decade or so, and then the exact opposite in much of the Lower Peninsula. So too many deer on the landscape, particularly the last 10 years or so. Some of that has to do with, I mean, it has to do with a variety of factors. So in the Upper Peninsula, we have more severe winters that deer have to deal with, particularly in the northern parts of the Upper Peninsula, a variety of predator interactions that have a lot of impacts on local deer herds, food availability, particularly in the winter.
And then when you get into the southern part of the state, we have very few severe winters anymore, particularly the Southern Lower Peninsula, plenty of food availability in agricultural areas. So deer do pretty well in most of the Lower Peninsula. So in very general terms, we've been seeing too many deer in much of the Lower Peninsula and maybe not enough deer in much of the Upper Peninsula. Again, those are very broad overstatements, and in a lot of cases, because deer are not distributed evenly across the landscape. So even in the Lower Peninsula, there's going to be places that we don't have as many deer as some people would like to see. But in general, that's kind of the overview.

Rachel:
And a lot of those trends that you mentioned were discussed this year during the Deer Management Initiative, which was a focal point for a lot of this year. Can you explain what that initiative is and what the main goals of the initiative were?

Chad:
So about this time last year, the Natural Resources Commission asked the department to put together this group called the Deer Management Initiative. And that was to address some of those issues, those very broad issues of not enough deer and much of the U.P. too many deer in most of the Lower Peninsulas. So the department took on a pretty extensive process to try to gauge to get some info from stakeholders. So we put out a request and had over 2,500 applicants to be a part of this team for maybe 30 to 40 positions. So we divided it up a group into the U.P. and then a group in the Lower Peninsula. We thought the problems managing deer and moving forward with different types of regulations and different things to manage deer in both peninsulas were different enough to have two separate teams. So brought these groups together, very diverse groups in their backgrounds and their desires and interacting with deer and some, most were deer hunters, but different groups of deer hunters and even non-hunters around the group as well.
But so the group got together regularly. They learned a lot about deer management. We put together a lot of presentations from experts in Michigan and across the country on different deer management related topics. And then these groups worked together to try to bring forward regulatory and some non-regulatory changes to try to move deer management in the direction that they felt was most appropriate for that particular team, whether it was the Upper Peninsula or Lower Peninsula. So those groups developed these reports. They presented the information to the department and the Natural Resources Commission, and through the regular commission process, they took some of those regulatory recommendations and went through the Natural Resources Commission process. Some of the things were approved by the commission, several were not. The commission approved some of their own regulatory changes, and some of the proposals were non-regulatory. So those were kind of put on what the commission was calling a roadmap to deal with in the future. So things that couldn't be dealt with during the regulatory process or needed some changes that the commission would not be able to do through their authority. So all that went through the commission, had their meetings June and July and passed a set of regulation changes that were passed in July and are in effect for this fall.

Rachel:
Can you explain what the Natural Resources Commission is for any listeners who might not know?

Chad:
So the Natural Resources Commission is a appointed body. They basically are the group that sets hunting and fishing regulations. They have the authority to make regulations. So the department and our team of experts will provide the commission with recommendations often for regulatory changes based on the surveys and data that we have. And then the commission takes input from us. They take input from the public, and then they are the ones who actually enact those regulations.

Rachel:
Thanks, Chad. So the Deer Management Initiative, or DMI, as it is often referred to basically was this group of people who took in a lot of information about deer related topics, and then they made some recommendations for how to move forward with deer management in the state. And they took those to the Natural Resources Commission. And then the commission made decisions based on some input from the DMI and some desires that the Natural Resource Commission wanted to see the Deer Management Program move towards.

Chad:
Yes, that is a very succinct and maybe better explanation than I gave.

Rachel:
Everything with deer is deeply nuanced and detailed, so we just try to cut through it, but it's really important. So I appreciate your summary. It was a lot of work that went into DMI. It's been over a year and a lot of DNR staff and a lot of partners and a lot of participation to make this initiative work. So after this was taken to the Natural Resources Commission, what notable outcomes came from the DMI process?

Chad:
So yeah, as you mentioned, there were several regulatory changes that came about from that process. One of the things that was interesting that I had seen kind of being an observer, I was not heavily involved in the process itself. But what was interesting was in listening to these groups talk to each other and talk with the commission, as we went through that regulatory process, they all were very, had a lot of positive things to say about the process. While it was kind of quick and there was a lot of information thrown at 'em, and even individuals within each group didn't always agree with each other on specific topics, they all felt that the process went pretty well. They were respectful to each other and they were appreciative of being involved in the process, just having a say and being able to engage with the department on that level to be able to bring their thoughts forward in a way that the department is listening and taking consideration.
So I think that was one of the big things that I noticed from observing that. And that's in addition to obviously the regulatory and some of the non-regulatory recommendations that did come through that process. I think one thing I would add too is if anybody's interested in learning about the process, they can go to the DNR'S website. There is a page dedicated to the DMI process, and if anybody has about 40 extra hours of time in their life and they want to learn all things deer management, their videos of those meetings were all recorded. And it is a wealth of information about deer and deer management deer habitat. So if anybody wants to nerd out on that information, that's all there on our website and they can go and learn about it themselves.

Rachel:
Yeah, there were some really interesting presentations. I mean, there is one on the predator-prey study that's a really big topic that hunters and really anyone who is living in the Upper Peninsula is probably really interested in, I guess the Lower Peninsula as well. I found that that presentation was really well done and easy to follow. So if you are interested, I mean Michigan's wildlife in general, but if you have hours to kill, we cannot recommend enough that you go watch these presentations. Now is the DMI still an active group? So if someone did go to the webpage and watched these videos and wanted to participate in the process, will you take applications for new members on the initiative? Does it end now that the recommendations have been made? What's the long-term vision for the initiative?

Chad:
The Deer Management Initiative group itself is pretty well met their goal, and that part of it is done. Probably starting next year, there will likely be similar groups that'll be formed, probably one for the Upper Peninsula, one for the Lower Peninsula that our staff will meet with annually, at least once in person every year, and then likely a few times a year virtually to talk about deer management in general. So that could be, it could be regulations related, it could be disease surveillance, it could be any number of topics, but continuing that stakeholder engagement is one of the long-term things that came out of this initiative that I think we'll see moving forward.

Rachel:
Another hot topic, there was an outbreak of a deer disease in southwest Michigan counties called epizootic hemorrhagic disease, or more commonly known as EHD. Can you explain what EHD is?

Sam:
Yeah. So EHD is a common naturally occurring viral disease, often found in deer. Clinical signs include lethargy, disorientation, you'll see swelling in the face, neck eyelids of a deer, they'll get a fever, they'll be really, really thirsty. So once a deer becomes infected with EHD, it'll usually expire within 36 hours or so. Not all deer die from this disease, but most do. Deer tend to contract the disease from being bitten by an infected biting Midge. Sometimes people call these midges no-see-ums. That's another common term. These midges emerge from muddy substrates like the banks of creeks, streams, ponds, rivers, and they bite deer who are usually nearby seeking water for hydration. And so the deer get bitten by these midges that are infected with the virus. So it can be pretty horrifying to see groups of dead or puzzling, especially if the deer are not really showing any visible clinical signs of the disease. But I think it's also important to note that the pathogen doesn't affect humans, dogs or cats, thankfully. And the population impacts that Chad will talk about are not as worrisome as some people might think.

Rachel:
Do you know why it only affects deer?

Sam:
It can affect elk as well, but usually elk will not succumb to that disease, but they'll have some long-term side effects. And then it's kind of interesting. So the Southeast has a longer history of EHD, so the deer in the Southeast aren't necessarily immune to it. They can be, but they're much more tolerant. But the deer here in the Midwest are immunologically naive to it because they have not been exposed to it because we've had historically cooler temperatures. So this is a new pathogen that they're being exposed to and that's why it's kind of wreaking such havoc here in the Midwest.

Rachel:
This year, how widespread was EHD in Michigan, and were there any areas more affected?

Sam:
Currently, there's 12 counties in Michigan with confirmed cases of EHD, and there are six counties with cases that are currently pending. We're still waiting on the results from testing. As of mid-October over 4,200 suspected deer have been reported with EHD, but that's probably a fairly conservative estimate because not all deer get reported. I know it's a lot, but comparing the outbreak now to what we saw this same time of year back in 2012. Back in 2012, we had over 25 confirmed counties and over 10,000 deer were reported, and those deer populations have rebounded since that crazy outbreak. So majority of these cases today are coming from the southwest region of the state, and luckily now that the weather's starting to cool down, a few hard frosts will kill those midges off. The transmission of the disease will stop.

Rachel:
And do you think it hit the Southwest region because we experienced more of a drought than the remaining portions of the state?

Sam:
I think that was a pretty big contributing factor for sure. And we're not the only state in the Midwest that's experiencing a bad outbreak this year. There's plenty of other states that are experiencing it too, and they've reported similar weather trends.

Rachel:
Is there anything that can be done about EHD?

Sam:
I think it's important to note that this, again is a naturally occurring disease, right? This is nature doing nature's thing. So you have this ecosystem where you have the pathogen doing its thing in combination with the Midge and the environmental conditions and the deer and all these things are working together, and there's not much we can do about that, right? But there is some really cool research going on, and it's a collaborative study between Michigan and West Virginia, and I think Georgia is a part of it too, where they're looking at what those environmental conditions are that lead to these big huge outbreaks like we're seeing this year or in 2012. And they're hoping that at the conclusion of this research, they might be able to, by understanding environmental conditions, be able to predict in the future what years or that year, what those conditions are correct, if it's going to be a bad outbreak year or not. That's an ongoing study. So hopefully maybe in the future while we can't really control the disease and how it's spreading, we might be able to determine whether or not it's going to be a bad year or not.

Rachel:
As we've mentioned, we are in the fall deer hunting season, so do you expect this outbreak to impact deer hunting season this year?

Chad:
Yeah, and most certainly in those areas that had high mortality, you're definitely going to see an impact. If you happen to live in an area that had a really high mortality leading into the season, it can be pretty detrimental to your hunting opportunity and your ability to acquire some venison for the year. One thing I've been trying to keep in mind too is we regularly remove a lot of deer from the population annually through hunting, and deer numbers are very rarely impacted by that level of harvest. So one thing that people should know is that deer populations can withstand a 35 to 40% annual harvest and still maintain that level of population going into the next year. So we've noted deer are highly reproductive, so the deer that are removed during the fall hunting season, if it's less than that 40%, they're replaced or added to that population the following year with fawns through reproduction.
So it is often worth noting that deer population can withstand a pretty high level of harvest and not be impacted in the long run. However, going back to those areas that have very high mortality rates, that's going to be much higher than that 35 to 40% probably. So those populations are definitely going to decline locally, but in the big picture, in the long run do replace themselves pretty quickly and hopefully a lot of those areas, they have good deer habitat, which promotes that reproduction. And when deer numbers decline, there's something called the density dependence factor in deer population dynamics, which means the less deer you have, there's more resources to go around, and so the deer that are left actually reproduce and produce more deer. So you see more twins, more triplets because there's more resources to go around, and those deer are able to add to that population more quickly.

Rachel:
In areas where there has been a big impact to the population because of the disease. Should hunter, should they still pursue deer in those areas this fall? Is it not going to make a difference? Should they seek out new hunting locations? What would your recommendation be for hunters in those areas?

Chad:
I've heard anecdotally from a lot of folks that they're still seeing some deer, not the numbers they are used to seeing normally, but even in those cases, some of those areas could still withstand some hunting pressure, but there's certainly going to be that hunters are going to back off entirely, and that's probably going to be the right move if that's kind of what they're seeing around the area they hunt. And talking with neighbors and other people around there, they want to see more deer. They're rightfully going to need to back off on harvest for a year or two.

Rachel:
Well, this is a good opportunity to plug that. We do have about 370,000 acres of public land in southern Michigan that are available to hunters, and if you're willing to go a little bit farther north, there's over 4 million acres of public land. So there is places for you to check out opportunities to be had, and all of that information is online at michigan.gov/hunting. You can find a lot of information on how to find those lands. As we pivot into more deer season talk. We talked a lot about DMI was coming up with recommendations for changes to deer management, and now we are in the deer season. What are some of those key regulation changes for deer hunting this year that hunters should be aware of?

Sam:
In the U.P. this year, there's been a three point antler restriction on the single deer license in DMU 122, and then in DMU 352, there's a requirement for an antlerless deer hunting access permit in addition to the universal antlerless license to be able to hunt antlerless deer. Then in DMU 351, that unit has no antlerless deer hunting access permits for the 2024 season. And universal antlerless deer licenses are not valid, but in quite a few DMUs antlerless deer can still be taken with archery equipment on a single deer license or the combo license until December 10th. But then after that, that date it'll close. And then in the Lower Peninsula. So we have an archery season extension through January 31st in select counties in the Southeast. And then zone two, the muzzle loader season is open to any legal firearm this year in the early and late antlerless firearm season, it's now open to public land. Before it was just private land, but now those early and late antlerless firearm seasons are public and private land. The last regulation to be looking after is the new extended late antlerless firearm season. It's going to be opening January 2nd, closing January 12th in all southern Michigan counties. And those licenses are discounted and available for $5 for that extended late season.

Rachel:
Now, there is a lot of conversation around antlerless harvest these days, and a lot of increased opportunity for antlerless deer harvest, as you just mentioned, the late season. What impact will that have on the deer population? What is the goal to what end with all of this increase in antlerless harvest?

Chad:
That kind of goes back to our original converstion when we started about sort of those general deer population patterns. So in much of the Lower Peninsula, we're seeing increasing deer numbers. At the same time, we're seeing declining hunter numbers. So we've lost over 200,000 deer hunters in the last couple decades. So 20 years ago we had almost 800,000 deer hunters. Now we're down to around 600,000 or a little bit less than that, and we anticipate to lose probably another a hundred thousand in the next decade. So as we move forward, we're seeing less hunters and an increasing deer population. So to manage deer populations, the focus should be on antlerless deer. In Michigan, we typically harvest more antlered deer, so bucks more so than antlerless deer or typically does. So a lot of the regulation changes in the last several years and including some of the changes this year through that DMI and NRC process are meant to provide more opportunity for antlerless harvest.
So several years ago, we got rid of deer management unit specific quotas or licenses and switched over to this universal anterless license. So in the past, there had been the antlerless licenses were specific to a deer management unit, which is often at the county level, particularly in the southern part of the state. So if you wanted to hunt in one county with a doe tag, you had to have a tag for that county. If you wanted to go to a different county, you had to buy a different tag for that specific county. So we changed that several years ago to make that tag available in all of the counties that are open to deer hunting. And we took the combination license, which is two deer licenses. You could shoot two antler deer with that, but you can also shoot antlerless deer with that. So that was a pretty popular move several years ago. However, with those changes, we still didn't see a trend in more antlerless harvest. So come this year, we're going through this regulatory process again, and the commission passed these several other regulatory changes that are providing more opportunity for the public to harvest more antlerless deer. So that's the goal, the impact on the deer population. We've yet to see that obviously since there are new regulations.

Rachel:
Mandatory harvest reporting has been in place. And with that, one of the benefits is is that we can get a real-time snapshot of the deer season to exactly the current day, if not the current minute. Have you noticed any trends or observations from the archery season so far?

Sam:
Yes, we've noticed as people have become more familiar with the process, it's taking them less time to complete the report, which is really good. This year we're trending similarly to 2023s' archery harvest numbers, but quite a bit lower than 2022s' archery harvest numbers by about 10,000 deer at this same time in the season about late October. So we're on par with last year's numbers so far.

Rachel:
And do you have any idea about licensed sales of how licensed numbers are selling at this point? If we're seeing an increase in licensed sales or a decrease?

Sam:
Yep, so they're staying similar to last year's numbers as well. Everything is staying pretty steady and even.

Chad:
It's a good time to plug our DNR Hunt Fish app, but in order to get that kill tag before firearm season starts to make sure you do it a couple of weeks ahead of time, otherwise you got to go to a store that sells the licenses and have it printed off.

Rachel:
Yeah, that's a really good reminder, Chad. Now, what factors such as weather or food availability are expected to have the biggest influence on deer movement? What are those factors that will influence deer movement or deer behavior and hunter's success? What are some things hunters should keep in mind as we head into the November 15th firearm, deer season opener?

Chad:
In the northern part of the state, mast crops are usually a big factor, and mast crops are typically, we have hard mast, which is acorns and nuts of other trees or soft mast like apples or other soft fruit, things of that nature. So those deer tend to respond to areas that have that type of natural food available. In southern Michigan, patterns are often dictated by agricultural crops, particularly corn harvest. And in Southern Michigan right now, corn is trending ahead of schedule, particularly as it was last year. I think saw some numbers recently here in late October, over 40% of the corn's been harvested in the state already, and that's well ahead of last year where it was at like 20% in the five year average. It's ahead of the five year average as well, if I recall correctly. So in southern Michigan, we have a lot of agriculture, a lot of corn fields. I provide a lot of cover when that corn is still standing, but once that corn is harvested, the deer have to move around a lot more, and that definitely impacts site ability and people's success hunting as well.

Rachel:
Are there any specific strategies or tips that hunters can use to improve their chances of success this season?

Chad:
I think the big thing is just kind of knowing the area you're hunting, doing some scouting, A lot of people get a lot of joy out of setting up trail cameras and kind of monitoring deer leading up to the season. That's kind of a fun pastime for a lot of folks. Getting together with neighbors friends to talk about what they're seeing. If you're in an area and know a local farmer, certainly talk to them. They're out and about a lot and can probably provide some insight on local deer activity and deer numbers as well. So yeah, I mean, there's nothing that can really be better than some local scouting and doing a little preseason planning to know what's going on locally and improve your chances this season.

Rachel:
Alright. One more burning question for the both of you. Since your jobs are so interesting and there's so much involved with deer, what are some of the most rewarding or challenging aspects of your work in managing the Michigan deer herd?

Sam:
That's a good question. For me, I would say the most rewarding aspect is seeing successful and happy hunters. I love interacting with folks and when people share their stories and they get super passionate during their telling, that's just such a contagious feeling. And then I start getting super excited and I'm just so happy to hear about their story and be a part of that moment for them. And on the flip side, I think the most challenging aspect, and not just, this isn't just for Michigan deer herds, but it's just how much there is to balance and consider when you're managing deer populations. There's just so much you need to know and consider when you're making decisions. And I think that was some of the feedback we received from the DMI group was they were a little shocked at just how much is involved and all the moving pieces that go into making some of these decisions. And it's also such a challenge trying to mitigate some of these modern challenges as we're seeing increasing deer populations and simultaneously decreasing hunter populations. So it's not just Michigan that's dealing with this issue either. Many other states are in the same boat as us, and we're all just kind of trying to figure out a way to navigate these kind of modern challenges.

Chad:
For me, it's kind of similar. It's actually probably two sides of the same coin. So part of the rewarding part is you are very important to a lot of people. We have a lot of deer hunters in the state. We have a lot of non-hunters who appreciate deer as well. So being able to have some heart in managing for that species is rewarding. Knowing just how many people really feel that deer are an important resource in the state also provides part of the challenging aspect because people have very differing opinions on how deer should be viewed or managed. So trying to balance that, like Sam said, there's so much to take into account and try to balance those competing interests and try to create a deer population that is sustainable in the long run for future generations as well as current generations. But also taking on some of those challenges, knowing some of the trends we're seeing. So yeah, part of it's rewarding and challenging at the same time.

Rachel:
Well, Sam and Chad, thank you for your time and your insight. Thanks for having us.

Eric/Announcer:
Michigan.gov/dnr trails is your destination for trail maps, trail etiquette, and trail closure information, trail information for biking, cross country skiing, horseback riding, hiking, off-road, vehicle riding, snowmobiling, snowshoeing, and even water trails for kayaking and canoeing are available. While you're there, remember to check out information about pet-friendly recreation, track chairs, and the Iron Bell Trail. All available@michigan.gov/dnrtrails.

Rachel:
Now is your opportunity to win a WildTalk podcast mug. As a thank you to our listeners, we'll be giving away a mug or two every episode. Our October mug winners, are Nancy Haskell and Mark Bayer. Check your email as we'll be getting in touch with you soon. They answered the question, how many times does a Ruby Throated Hummingbird beat its wings? The answer is 53. To be entered into the drawing this month, test your wildlife knowledge and answer our wildlife quiz question. This month's question is; Ducks have a specialized adaptation in their bills to help filter food from water. What is this called? Email your name and answer to us at DNR-Wildlife@michigan.gov to be entered for a chance to win a mug. Be sure to include the subject line as "Mug Me" and submit your answers by November 15th. We'll announce winners and the answers on next month's podcast. So be sure to listen in to see if you've won and for the next quiz question, good luck everyone.

Eric/Announcer:
Michigan Conservation Officers are working hard to protect and keep the outdoors safe for current and future generations. If you witness a natural resources violation, you can call or text the Report All Poaching hotline, 24 hours a day at 1-800-292-7800, or fill out the complaint form available at michigan.gov/RAP. If you would like more information on becoming a conservation officer, click on Become a CO at michigan.gov/conservationofficers.

Rachel:
And now is the time to show our appreciation for those who have donated to the Non-Game Wildlife Fund. To celebrate the 50th anniversary of Michigan's Endangered Species Law. This month, we wish an enormous thank you to Owen Nowak for donating this past month to the Non-Game Fund. We have raised over $770 since September 1st for the Non-Game Wildlife Fund. And your support makes a big difference in conserving our state's most vulnerable species. Remember, if you want to hear your name read on the air, simply visit michigan.gov/wildlife and click on the link to donate. We look forward to adding more names to this list. Next episode. Well folks, thank you for joining us for this November edition of the WildTalk Podcast. I can't believe we only have one podcast left in this year. Remember, if you have any questions about wildlife or hunting, you can call 517-284-9453 or email us at DNR-Wildlife@michigan.gov. We will see you back here in December for our final episode of the season.

Eric/Announcer:
This has been the WildTalk Podcast, your monthly podcast airing the first of each month in offering insights -into the world of wildlife across the state of Michigan. You can reach the Wildlife Division at 517-284-9453 or DNR-Wildlife@michigan.gov.