Cougar kittens, invasive species, and the bufflehead.

In this episode of the Wildtalk Podcast, we talk to Katie Grzesiak about invasive species and their impact on Michigan habitat, fly away with a discussion about the bufflehead, and we wrap up the episode with a lengthy chat with Brian Roell about the cougar kittens recently spotted in Michigan's Upper Peninsula.

Episode Hosts: Rachel Lincoln and Eric Hilliard
Producer/editor: Eric Hilliard

• All things habitat
  • Michigan.gov/Invasives
  • MISIN
  • Lesser Celandine
• All things feathers
  • Bufflehead
  • Spring birding tour at Nayanquing Point
  • Spring birding tour at Portage Marsh
• All things fur
  • Michigan.gov/Cougar
  • Cougar dashboard
  • Cougar kitten press release

Questions or comments about the show? Contact the DNR Wildlife Division at 517-284-9453 (WILD) or email dnr-wildlife@michigan.gov.

Transcript

Announcer
The Michigan DNR Hunt Fish app is your digital connection to all things hunting and fishing in Michigan. Buy, store, and display your hunting and fishing licenses, check your points and chances for elk and bear, apply for the draw, and view drawing results. Access all the hunting and fishing regulations, view your hunter safety certificate, and report your harvest all from within the Michigan DNR Hunt Fish app. Just click the app banner at the top of the page for download instructions at michigan.gov/hunting.

Announcer
You know what that sound means. It's time for the Michigan DNR WildTalk podcast. Welcome to the WildTalk podcast where representatives from the DNR Wildlife Division chew the fat and shoot the scat about all things habitat, feathers, and fur. With insights, interviews and your questions answered on the air. You'll get a better picture of what's happening in the world of wildlife, here in the great state of Michigan.

Eric
Welcome to the WildTalk podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Lincoln. And joining me today is my co-host Eric Hilliard.

Eric
How's it going, Eric?

Rachel
Hey, Rachel. It's going really well today on this April morning.

Eric
April morning. Yeah. What what April morning is this by chance?

Rachel
I believe it's the first of the month which would make this.

Eric
April Fool's Day. I bet you we got all of our listeners. And they didn't even realize that I was playing you and you were playing me.

Rachel
We both do have silky smooth voices, perfect for podcasting so...

Eric
Yes. Yeah. So do we have lined up for this April podcast episode?

Rachel
Well, first things first, we will talk with Katie Grzesiak our terrestrial invasive species coordinator. She's going to come on and chat with us about a new invasive species that's becoming a problem here in Michigan. Lesser celandine. So we're looking forward to hearing more about that and what you can do to help prevent the spread of invasive species here in our great state. Then we'll talk about the bufflehead. It's a quirky little duck that you can see right about now in wetland areas, but especially at our wetland wonders. And we'll tell you how you can go see those birds on a DNR guided birding tour across our Wetland Wonders areas over the next couple of months. If you'd like to go on a really cool new birding tour.

Eric
That bird has a name that sounds like an insult. You bufflehead.

Rachel
Actually, we're going to talk about that. So the origin behind bufflehead and kind of what it means and how it does perfectly describe the duck. Then we have a really special interview with Brian Roell, the large carnivore specialist, to talk about the cougar kittens that were recently verified in the Upper Peninsula. So that should be a really good conversation. Now, of course, we'll have our regular Mug Me trivia questions, so stick around for your chance to win a mug. We have a great show lined up, so let's get into it right after this.

Announcer 2
Trees provide for the well-being of our state. That's why we work so hard to keep our forests healthy and abundant. So wildlife has a home, and so do people. So that there's clean air and water for everyone. And so Michigan's economy can be as strong as the trees that support it, because every branch of forestry ensures that future generations will always have a tree for life and forests for a lifetime. To learn how sustainable forestry benefits your life, visit michigan.gov/forestsforalifetime.

Rachel
Welcome back. Today we are talking with Katie Grzesiak, our terrestrial Invasive Species Coordinator with the DNR's Wildlife Division. Katie is here to tell us about a new invasive species that has cropped up in Michigan. Now, before we dive into the discussion about this invasive species, can you start by telling us just a little bit more about yourself and your role in the wildlife division?

Katie
Absolutely. So like you said, I'm the terrestrial invasive species coordinator. And I actually get to work statewide with everybody from folks on the ground, and external partners to folks in other divisions, other departments, and even, outside of the state of Michigan, whether it's federal or tribal. Just about everybody, as terrestrial says, I'm focused on land based stuff. Not the wet stuff. And mostly plants. But, my role is mostly to support people making their smart decisions about how they're managing invasive species. Just kind of share knowledge and help make sure that everybody has the tools that they need. And then I mentioned that I work with other folks outside of the DNR as well. So I'm working with folks across state government and beyond to make sure that we're, you know, sharing our tools, making sure we have aligning goals. And we're using the most widely accepted science.

Rachel
To take a step back really quickly. Can you remind us what an invasive species is and why invasive species are problematic?

Katie
Well, I would love to. So, the definition of invasive species is something that is not native. So it's not from here, right? And it also is harmful to the environment or to the economy or human health. And so it means being a bully usually when we're thinking about plants, it's crowding out other organisms. It's using resources or changing how a system works, or maybe even eating all the food or poisoning the soil. All sorts of different ways that these invasive species can be bullies.

Rachel
Yeah, that's a really helpful way to think about it. It's bullying other species. You know, language around invasive species I've come to learn is really specific. You have to be very intentional when talking about invasive species like you mentioned. I mean, you know, there's native, non-native, invasive. There's other words we hear used. I'm sure that's part of a larger conversation that you are involved in frequently. Right. Like getting these specific words correct. And as communicators that's just something we have a specific interest in as well. It's interesting to see it. What words are chosen.

Katie
Yeah. One of the ones that comes up a lot is weeds. Right. Or even just like aggressive because the native species could be a weed or a native species could be aggressive or unwanted, but a native species like poison ivy can't be invasive, right? You might not want it in your garden, and that's okay. But it is actually a really important part of our habitat.

Rachel
Yeah. Thank you for that distinction. Now, there is a new invasive species on the block, Lesser celandine or Lesser celandine. And I believe it's one of those two pronunciations which is now in Michigan's watch list for invasive species. So tell us more about this invasive species. And what makes it invasive.

Katie
Well, first I want to talk a little bit about the watchlist itself. And so to define it, it's not actually a legal definition. This isn't something that's in a law somewhere. This is a tool that we're using. The folks that I'm working with in the Michigan Invasive Species Program, we're using that to help us think about the species that are here, or not maybe in Michigan yet. But we think we have a chance of, doing a lot of good early on before they're well established in the state. Right? So we're thinking about our early detection and response. And one of the key things we say is it's either not known in Michigan or it has a limited known distribution in Michigan. And so Lesser celandine or Lesser celandine, as you said, I'll probably say both of them throughout our chat. But Lesser celandine, is a species that we know is in Michigan. But we are not sure exactly where it is. So. And it is a tiny little plant that is very short. I think of it as growing like a carpet very low to the ground, and it has really waxy leaves that are pretty small, like some of the biggest ones might be around the size of a quarter. And then it has yellow flowers that open when there's sunlight, and close when it's dark or when it's raining. And it has a bunch of little leaves or little puddles. Excuse me. On those, flowers, like several, like 11. And it grows in wet areas, usually in floodplains, maybe close to a river in kind of a swampy area under trees. But it comes out so, so early, that the trees don't have leaves on it yet. So we call it a spring ephemeral. It means that it, it comes up really, really early in the spring and then actually disappears. That's what that ephemeral means. It means it goes away. It doesn't last very long. And so this is a, plant that comes up before the trees have their leaves on it and then disappears before, like, Memorial Day, usually. Really, really early in the spring. You might even be able to go out and see it now. And then, like I said, after Memorial Day, it'll be gone. It is able to spread in a bunch of different ways. It can spread by seeds, but one of the ways the or the ways that we usually see it spreading, is by either bulbils, which are like these little tiny barbs of tiny little bulbs that grow out of the axels of the leaves, which is kind of like the armpit of the leaf, right where the the leaf attaches to the stem. And those fall off and grow new plants. And then it also has tubers under the soil, which are like itty bitty little potatoes. And those little bitty potatoes can break off whether it's during a flood or maybe a critter is digging around, or even if we're just walking through really mucky soil, those tubers can break off and grow a new plant as well.

Rachel
And what kind of impacts does Lesser celandine have on the species? It's either replacing or surrounding.

Katie
So I mentioned that it's a low growing plant. But one of the things that is the trickiest about it is, is it's carpet like growth. It is low growing and it grows really, really thickly. And so it can crowd out. Right? So you can crowd out those other plants physically. There is a little bit of evidence that it, it might even be allelopathic, which would mean it would put out chemicals into the soil that can stop other plants from growing. But even if it only does the physical bullying, the crowding there, because it grows so, so early in the year, it can, create that carpet. That means that other plants may not be able to sprout and grow. And so that may be some of our own native spring ephemeral, like spring beauties. That also just like, show up, are just here for a little while and then are gone for the year. But it also, has impacts on things like tree regeneration. If those little tree seedlings can't grow, when they're tiny babies, then they don't get to be middle sized plants, right? That can then grow into big trees. And as well as some of our special species are actually at risk from this plant. In some areas of the state, we have a plant called the Snow trillium. Many folks may be familiar with our Large flowered trillium or maybe our Red trillium. But we have a Snow trillium that only grows in, I think, like four counties in Michigan. And it grows in some of these same places that Lesser celandine likes to grow. And it is very much at risk of being crowded out. Not necessarily when it's an adult, it's a little bit taller. But when it's a seedling, it could absolutely be carted out by these Lesser celandine plants. Another impact that luscious online can have is on erosion. And because it shows up in early, early in the spring and then dies back later, it actually leaves bare soil behind. Because all those other plants weren't able to grow. And then, if you have a flood or if there is a lot of wind activity or even just if you're walking through that area later, that soil is now unprotected by the roots of other plants. Right? And so that erosion may impact our water quality or it may impact, like physically, you know, how stable the ground is.

Rachel
Yeah, it it certainly is an invasive species. I think I've seen it in Portland State Game Area. Is it found there?

Katie
That's one of the areas that we know it's pretty prevalent. There are lots of areas in Michigan that we don't know where it is, but Portland State Game Area is one that is really at risk.

Rachel
So you said it's a spring ephemeral. Does that mean it's out now. It's visible like kind of April-May time frame.

Katie
Yeah April is probably your best chance to see this plant. And again maybe don't walk too close to it. Right. We don't want to risk spreading the species. But April is really the time we want folks to be out and looking. Because that that is the main time to see it. Especially. It's easiest to see when it's flowering. And in April is your best chance. So looking for those really early spring flowers. And looking anywhere that there's wet ground, can be important. Looking little, you know, kidney to, spade shaped leaves and just really, really low growth. We do have some look-a-likes in Michigan. In particular, the one that always comes up is Marsh marigold, which is a fantastic spring wildflower. Really native and fantastic in wet areas. But the difference is, you know, I keep talking about, like, sounding as a carpet, right? And marsh marigold is, like, the size of a flower pot or like a layer cake, right? It's much larger. It's taller. It's a lot more robust. Whereas Lesser celandine is is very carpeted, you know, might be a couple inches tall. I don't want to make folks think that it is minuscule, but it's definitely a low growing plant.

Rachel
Yeah, and in quite abundance. When I saw it, like I saw it on the river bank, going down into a river in, like, the entire river bank for what felt like a mile was covered in yellow. So it's one of those things, like when you see it, you'll be able to know what it is because it is so aggressive. We have obviously a a lot of native flowers, but for something to take over so aggressively like this one is we don't have a lot of native plants that bloom at this time that are yellow, that take over in this kind of broad stretch of land, right? So if you see it this time of year, that's what it is.

Katie
Yeah, absolutely. The only other really look-a-likes that we have are, dandelions. Right. Those are just kind of like low yellow plants, but those are not blooming yet. And then the other one I thought of was, the Yellow mossy stone crop cedar maker. But that grows in dry areas and lots of sun. And it blooms in late summer. So there's really not a lot other than the Marsh marigold to get it confused with. And once you see them like they're very different sizes again. So they're not easy to confuse. But the so, Rachel, you mentioned that there are areas that we have a lot of it. And that's really, really concerning. And we want to make sure that we're paying attention to that. But one of the reasons that this species is on the watch list is, is that though we know that we have these areas where there is a lot there are a lot of areas in Michigan where we don't know that we have it at all, and we have a lot of river systems in Michigan. We have around a lot of lakes, a lot of these really special areas. And we want to pay attention and, keep it out of there, whenever we can.

Rachel
So what can people do then, in terms of what can people do to prevent this spread? And also if they do find this plant, what can they do?

Katie
Absolutely. So the great thing about prevention is that you don't have to remember all the things I told you about how to identify it, right? The most important prevention part is decontamination, which is a super cool word for please clean your shoes, clean your clean your pet's paws, clean your equipment. Every time you go out, no matter where you go, it's a great way to keep all your stuff in better shape, right? And it's a great way again, no matter where you're going, whether it's here in Michigan or somewhere completely different, if you always are doing what we call play, clean, go right. So you go do your recreation, you clean, and then you go somewhere else. That helps, no matter where you are. You don't have to know what kind of invasive species are there, you're helping to stop the spread of whatever invasive species might be there. And so that's especially if you've been in a place where Lesser celandine is, we want to make sure you're getting all the mud out of your shoes. Keeping a little brush in your car or on your bike is a great way to keep your equipment clean, keep yourself clean, and again, like, also clean your pets. Those little bulbils that I was talking about with Lesser celandine are very, very small. Like kind of the size of a BB, so especially in the muddier spring time, it's very easy for those to catch a ride, but truly, any time of year it's always important to be cleaning, cleaning yourself and your gear. Beyond that, as you mentioned, or as we both talked about, invasive species, our our knowledge about them is only as good as what people tell us, right? There's only a couple of us out there doing this work. And so if folks are able to report any invasive species, but especially watch list species that is ideal. So we have a really great database called the MISIN database. Misin.msu.edu and all of that information comes back to me and it also comes back to those partners that I was talking about, in particular the cooperative invasive species management areas. These are local groups that are all over the state of Michigan. It's fantastic. We have 22 of them. And these folks are also working on the ground out there trying to find invasive species and manage them. And so all of us together get to have this information if you report it to MISIN and include a picture so that we can verify it, that's part of it. Like I get a notification, it says, oh, Jim reported this Lesser celandine, but if there's no picture then I have to try to, you know, I serve the whole state. And so I have to try to, like, get out there and figure out if if Jim was right. Versus if Patty goes out and Patty takes a picture, I can take a look at that picture and say, yes, that is the plant or the species. Get that verified. And then we can use that information to help us make better management decisions.

Katie
So please decontaminate, you know, no matter what, that if that's the only thing you remember about invasive species is play, clean, go. Congratulations. You're basically an invasive species biologist. But then if you do, if you are familiar with invasive species, any of any kind reporting them to MISIN is a great way to get that information into the hands of managers.

Rachel
Yeah, that is all really great information, Katie. And for anyone who might want to see a photo of Lesser celandine, or see maybe some other species there on our invasive species watch list or things we know are here. What resources do you have to point them to?

Katie
So the best place to find information about the watch list is on, our own website, michigan.gov/invasives. And that will get you more species than just the watch list. But there is the watch list is there. And you can find that information. But MISIN again is actually more than just reporting. There are also species profiles for tons of different invasive species, far from just the watch list, because there's unfortunately a lot more than just the watch list. And they also have training modules so you can go through, and it will show you a bunch of different pictures and, and point out all those identification characteristics, and then even give you a quiz to help you, like, learn. Right. And there's no pressure. You can take it as many times, you know, there's, there's no test. You don't, you know, fail or anything. It's it's a really, really fantastic resource to help folks get more familiar with invasive species of any kind and see what's near them. Also, you can also look at those maps. Once we verified them, you can see what has been reported near you and think about, you know, if you have a garden to manage or you take part in a community garden, you can see what's out there and what you might want to look out for. Also, we did a webinar on Lesser celandine, and I'm not exactly sure when the recording will be posted, but that should get posted on that website as well. So michigan.gov/invasives.

Eric
Yeah we can go ahead and link to that in our show notes too once that's available so people can find it easily.

Rachel
All right Katie Grzesiak thank you so much for joining us and happy spring.

Announcer
There are many camping and lodging opportunities available in Michigan state parks. When you choose state park campgrounds, you get more than just a campsite. State parks offer a diverse range of recreational opportunities, including Hands-On instructional classes, nature programs, places to fish, boat launches, family friendly events, and much more. Reservations can be made six months in advance, so why wait? Visit my MIDNRreservations.com or call 1-800-44-PARKS to make a reservation.

Rachel
Let's talk about Buffleheads, which are some of the quirkiest ducks we have here in Michigan and some of our smallest. So these are a diving duck. They are actually our smallest diving duck that we have here in Michigan. But don't let their small size fool you. They are full of personality. And if you've ever watched them, or if you hopefully soon see them this spring, you will understand why. The common name Bufflehead is actually derived from an ancient Greek word that means bull headed, which is in reference to their oddly bulbous head shape. So these birds have been described as having buoyant, large heads. And if you've ever seen one, you understand that this is a completely accurate description. So these buffalo heads have kind of an unusually large, oblong head, and the males have this large white patch that extends from their eye all the way to the back of their head. And so you can look for that key white cheek patch to know, you know, what species it is you're looking at. But they are not to be confused by the male Hooded Mergansers, which also has the giant head that is black and white. So additional identification needed of the flight feathers.

Eric
The giant head probably cries himself to sleep with his huge pillar.

Rachel
Was that an Austin Powers reference?

Eric
So it's actually from So I married an Ax Murderer. But Mike Myers delivers the line.

Rachel
You've got that accent down. I knew it was Mike Myers character. So as I was saying, male Buffleheads, they have this white cheek patch and then the front of their head is like an iridescent green color and then a purple color under that white patch. So if the head of the duck is kind of greenish purplish with big white patch, you are looking at a Bufflehead.

Eric
That iridescent glow is probably really cool, especially if you've got got yourself some nice binoculars to get a really good up close look.

Rachel
Certainly they are extremely beautiful birds, so if you if you spot them, I would certainly try to get a closer look if you can. The females though however are a little bit more under stated. So they've got more of grayish brown feathers and a smaller white cheek patch. So it's more of like a little rectangular white patch that spreads across their cheek. Another way to distinguish these birds is how they fish. So these birds are known to because they're diving ducks, they can float on the top of the water, as you would expect most ducks to do, and then they will abruptly vanish. So they will shoot underwater to fish, but also they swim super quickly. And so then they'll resurface multiple feet away. So they vanish and resurface, and it's kind of pop up. And this is their best strategy for moving quickly to catch fish and also to avoid predation. So I recently saw this video of two bald eagles that were fishing for a Bufflehead in this open patch of water on an otherwise ice covered lake. And I mean, it couldn't have been bigger than like...

Eric
I mean technically wouldn't they be waterfowling for a waterfowl that's fishing?

Rachel
You've got it. Yeah. They were trying to catch those poor duck and boy, was it stressed. There was like three feet of open water with bald eagles on both sides, and this duck would go underwater to avoid being grabbed by a talon and just pop up six inches away. And then the talon would pop on top of it and try to catch it, and it would dive into the water again and pop up just 18 inches away.

Rachel
And it did this for minutes, avoiding being taken out by these bald eagles, and eventually it had enough space to get up out of the water and into flight. And then the video cuts out. So we don't know what chain of events transpired. After the eagles...

Eric
Get a Peregrine falcon swooped in and snatched it out of the air from the thrill of victory to the jaws of defeat immediately.

Rachel
Nature is metal.

Eric
Yes it is.

Rachel
It's just got to happen all the time. So all of that goes to say these birds are really fast in the water and they have to be to catch food. So as I mentioned, they're diving ducks, which means they have to dive for food underwater. So they're primarily eating aquatic invertebrates, things like insects, snails, some crustaceans as well as some plant material. So big aquatic invertebrate fans, that's a weird thing to say, but I'm going to say it anyways. And because they're our smallest diving duck species, you know, the extra small and their small agile bodies allow them to dive and resurface quickly to avoid predation and to catch prey. Now, this time of year is considered spring migration time. So we've got lots of birds that have been down south for the winter time that are returning to Michigan and Buffleheads are amongst some of these birds, and so you can see them more frequently this time of year as they are arriving from down south. So interestingly, the Bufflehead's breeding range is limited by the distribution of Northern flickers.

Rachel
So Northern flickers are a woodpecker species that is really good excavating holes in trees for where they nest. And these Bufflehead will use those same nesting cavities once Northern flickers are no longer in them. And so they need and require Northern flickers and occasionally other woodpecker species to basically create their homes for them. And then they kind of...

Eric
Basically so they're basically like, they're squatters of the bird world.

Rachel
Yes, precisely. Yep. So they do spend their you know, they do live in trees, in these tree cavities, these holes in trees, but they don't actually have to do the work of creating them themselves because they don't have the equipment to these again, our duck species without the bill equipment to excavate trees. So another interesting fact about Buffleheads is that we have found fossils of this curious little duck from the late Pleistocene, which was about 500,000 years ago. And those fossils have been found kind of all across North America. So Alaska, California, Florida, Illinois, Kansas, you know, kind of all over the place. These fossils have been found. But one California fossil that resembles kind of the modern Bufflehead that we see today, dates all the way back to the Pliocene era, which was 2 million years ago. So these birds have been around for a while. What can you tell us about the Pleistoncene or the Pliocene?

Eric
Absolutely nothing.

Rachel
Stumped ya? 

Eric
Yeah. Nope, I am not. That's not my my forte.

Rachel
Obviously it's not mine either. In modern times, the Bufflehead population is stable, thanks in large part to major conservation efforts across the country and really the world that protect their breeding habitat and work to monitor their populations. Though they do rely heavily on healthy wetland ecosystems. So making sure that those habitats stay protected or are cared for and conserved is critical to the continued success of the buffalo ahead. Now, if the description I've given you is enough to make you want to see one of these beautiful little ducks, then do I have some recommendations for you for where you can go find them?

Eric
Oh yes, please do tell.

Rachel
You can go to some really fantastic places known as Michigan's Wetland Wonders. And they are these really excellent areas that have been managed specifically for waterfowl species. So they have all the things, all the habitat components needed for kind of waterfowl and wetland bird species to really thrive. These places create exceptional waterfowl hunting opportunities in the fall when hunting seasons are open. But during the spring, when migration is happening and nesting is occurring, you can go to these areas and see the most amazing birds arriving and breeding and getting ready to rear babies. So it's an awesome time to get out there.

Eric
Especially in April when the weather's just starting to get a little bit nicer and everything else is, you know, go out there and a nice sunny day.

Rachel
Yeah. And if you go out there and one of the Saturdays that's coming up, you can even have DNR biologists led tours of these areas to go see some of these amazing birds.

Eric
What? Tell us more.

Rachel
Isn't it exciting! We do this every year. And so if you've been before, you know this is really worth your time to go to. And if not, well then I hope you check it out this year. So these birding tours are pulled together with DNR and also are good partners at MI Birds, which is the public outreach and engagement program for Audubon Great Lakes. And on these tours there's a couple different types of tours depending on which wetland wonder you're hoping to visit. But one of them will be like a caravan car tour. And so you'll arrive at the office that's on that, state game area or state wildlife area. You'll meet the biologist. We'll talk about how awesome the area is, species you might be looking for, and then you will drive your own vehicle around kind of in a parade fashion to go spot some of these areas. And then they'll be turn offs where the gang gets out and walks to a specific area, and you kind of talk about the birds that you're seeing. This is one of the very few times that people can drive vehicles out onto these managed waterfowl areas. And so it's a cool opportunity. So I definitely recommend checking these out. There will also be opportunities for some walking bird tours as well. So if you prefer to put on your hiking boots and get your steps in, there will be opportunities to do that and kind of walk to some of the best viewing areas or viewing platforms and see what birds have arrived this spring. Some bird species that we hope you'll get to see are, of course, these Buffleheads and other diving and dabbling ducks, but also trumpeter swans, tundra swans, ospreys which are so incredible.

Rachel
I always forget how big ospreys are until one flies over me here. They are enormous birds. Very cool to watch. Also other enormous birds, bald eagles are out there, sandhill cranes and just lots more. So if you've got binoculars and a birding scope and you want to take those, but even if you don't, they'll probably be some extras there on these tours. So don't feel like you need to have a bunch of equipment and go enjoy these birds. I would also recommend that whether or not you're birding at one of these wetland wonders, you're going on a tour, or if you're just planning on birding in your backyard this spring. There are some really great tools I recommend that you use. I use them frequently, even when I'm just in my backyard to see what kind of birds are present. One of them is the Audubon Bird Guide app, so that gives you identification kind of what birds are in your area, what you can expect to see. Then of course, the Merlin Bird app, which is my personal favorite. This you can just press a button and it will record all of the bird sounds you're hearing, and then give you a complete list of what you're hearing. And for those of us like me, who don't have a very keen ear for bird calls, despite the numerous years and efforts you've put in to try to learn, this is just like the best life hack ever. So Merlin is usually my go to. And then if you do see some birds and you feel confident in the identification, then eBird or iNaturalist where you can go and support community science by plugging in your observations. And then lots of biologists and researchers will use that data then to know what birds are in the area and potentially use that data in bird management plans, and how to kind of make sure we're monitoring populations and creating habitat where we can. Not only do you get to see cool birds, but you also can contribute to community science, which is like the best twofer ever.

Rachel
So if you want to learn more about those wetland wonders, spring birding tours, we will have a link in our show notes to the upcoming events. There is one this month. In just a couple days on Saturday, April 5th, there's a spring birding tour at Nayanquing Point State Wildlife Area, and then there's also one in May on Saturday the 17th, and that is at the Portage Marsh State Wildlife Area, which is up in the Upper Peninsula. Well, regardless of whether or not you go on a tour or you just go birding in your backyard or your nearby river or nature area, we hope that the next time you are near some open water, especially right now during a migration season, you can keep your eye out for these pint sized diving Buffleheads ducks. Again, you'll see them zipping across the surface of the water or popping up from one of their dives. And of course, they are small, but they do make a big impression.

Announcer
Pure Michigan Hunt applications are on sale now. If you want your shot of what is considered Michigan's ultimate hunt, pick up a $5 application or two. There's no limit to the number you can buy. If you're one of the three lucky winners, you'll get a hunting prize package worth thousands, as well as licenses for elk, bear, spring and fall turkey, antlerless deer, and first pick a managed waterfowl area for a reserved hunt purchase anywhere hunting licenses are sold or online at Michigan.gov/PMH.

Rachel
Today we're talking with Brian Roell, the large carnivore specialist for the DNR Wildlife Division. He's here to talk with us about the recent cougar sightings that were observed in the Upper Peninsula. Thank you for joining us, Brian.

Brian
Well, thanks for having me.

Rachel
Now, before we dive into all of our burning questions about cougars and cougar kittens, can you please, just share a little bit about what led you to become the large carnivore specialist? And what does your role as the large carnivore specialist for the wildlife Division involve?

Brian
So I've been working for the DNR in one form or another for the past 26 years. So did I want to necessarily work with wolves? No, but, my master's degree with was with, Swift Fox, one of the smallest canids in North America. So out in Colorado, out in the short grass prairies, you know, so I guess I'm kind of fitting now that I'm working with the largest Canidae in North America. But basically, once I came back, I was lucky enough to get back in the Michigan DNR. Grew up in Michigan as well, in the Upper Peninsula, was working with wolves, with research, with former biologist Dean Beyer and, then kind of doing it for a while. I actually was the wolf coordinator. Then political things occurred and, position was dissolved and then I, they actually made me a special projects biologist, where I did other things, but really just kept working on wolves because somebody had to do it. And then kind of some stuff occurred. They were going to hire, a specialist position with wolves, but I really wanted to stay in the field. You know, I like flying in helicopters and jumping on moose and those kinds of things. And I just didn't want to be stuck to a desk. So I didn't apply. Things have changed in the departments number of years down the road, and now specialist positions can do field work. So here I am. But really, it's, wolves, cougars and lynx. But I like to throw a T-Rex in there because, heck, they're large carnivores, too.

Rachel
Absolutely. Now, in early to mid March, we had some really exciting observations of cougar kittens being found in the Upper Peninsula for the first time in a really long time. They were super excited to hear you talk more about that. Is this the first verified case of cougar cubs in Michigan in over a century? Is that correct?

Brian
Correct. I've checked with other biologists in our neighboring states. They have not verified cougar kittens in their states, but doesn't mean hasn't occurred undetected either. But at least this is the first time we could verify that we did have existence of wild cougar kittens, we are presuming they're wild, basically since the late 1800s in Michigan. So pretty crazy stuff.

Rachel
It is crazy. So what? But what is crazy about this? So what does this discovery mean for Michigan and Michigan's wildlife?

Brian
You know, really not a lot at this point because we're talking individuals. This is not a population. And so truthfully, in in the science realm, we can't even confirm that we have had reproduction because we haven't had that picture of mom with the cubs. I really hope we get one. I have a lot of trail camera folks out there that are more than willing to share stuff with me in the area. We have our wolf abundance camera, so we have over 1200 cameras out in the Upper Peninsula. I'm hoping sooner or later these kittens show up again with mom, ideally. And that that would be great. But so we haven't confirmed reproduction. And you know, really, once we can get that, then we have something scientific, that realm that we could say. I mean, certainly this would be the first confirmed, reproduction east of the Mississippi. And well over 100 years and probably east of the Missouri River. So we can't say breeding because we don't know where she was bred. Cougars have about a three month gestation period. Could she have bred in Wisconsin or Minnesota? Yeah, that's all up in the air. So that's something we probably won't be able to confirm. But certainly that trail cam picture with mom and kittens or cubs, any of their cubs or kittens is correct. So, you can use them interchangeably. That's what we're really hoping for.

Rachel
So yeah. So a follow up to the comment you just mentioned, Cougar, Mountain lion, I've heard Panther. All of these words seem to be synonymous. So so what do you use? And...

Brian
I kind of think Cougars or Mountain lions. That seems to be the most common, but yeah, panthers, catamounts. You know, you name it that there's another name. There's about a half a dozen names for all for the same species.

Eric
Vermicious-canids, snozzwangers...

Rachel
I just prefer to call them big kitties. So you mentioned, you know, you have you have photos of these kittens. So walk us through the process of how these cubs were verified. Like what evidence confirms their presence. And are you still looking for additional evidence of them? Where are we at?

Brian
And that that's really important because and unfortunate for us in Michigan, we do get a lot of hoaxes. With cougars. So folks will submit pictures of a mountain lion or a cougar. And it's taken in some other state, but then represented as being in Michigan, whether from the Upper Peninsula or Lower Peninsula. We've had them all over the state. So we have a policy that we go through. I mean, use some rigor before we actually verify, it being from Michigan. So in this case, this was Saturday afternoon sitting at home, I started getting texts to me about social media showing pictures of cougar kittens and saying they're from and Ontonagon County. So, you know, is this legit? You know, my first thing is well, I'm a little skeptical. I have not heard anything. But I started doing some investigation from there, calling some contacts. I had, some help from Kristin with the Discovery Channel or not the Discovery Channel. Discovery, Upper Peninsula discovery program. She had a brother in law that her boss is one that took some pictures. So. So I tracked that guy down, able to get a phone number for him. I got that phone number on Sunday evening. Then I made that call, Monday morning, talked with this gentleman. He supplied me with a whole bunch more pictures. And then actually, there was another eye witness with the the kittens. He was a county plow driver. And then I found out, actually, there was, a tribal police officer or, game warden. I also witness the cats, too. So everybody had the same story at the time. They thought they were bobcats, so they didn't really think much of it. So they thought, boy, this is really cool, bobcat kittens. And took some pictures and then kind of went on their day.

Brian
Then later on, you know, wife and daughter were saying, well, we're seeing other pictures and they, everybody's saying they're mountain lions. So then it kind of clicked the well, maybe these aren't bobcats. So once I got those pictures and this is now so I got them one day, then I, there was a picture in there that I could verify the background. I went out to the site to make sure that indeed the picture was taken in, in Ontonagon County. So that was done on Tuesday. Got back, got all that evidence, made a report, sent it out to our cougar team and got the confirmation back on Wednesday. And then by Thursday we were putting out a press release. So really, really fast, actually, I was kind of surprised. I was trying to hold back the press release a little bit, get everything in order. But, they really wanted to move forward.

Rachel
For my own curiosity, how do you tell the difference between mountain lion kittens and bobcat kittens?

Brian
Well, the first when I first saw the picture, I was like, oh, they're going, yeah, that looks like a cougar kitten. So how do you tell the difference? So one is the four legs. But that can be subjective based on, you know, so when I say four legs, I'm talking the front paws. And in one of the pictures, you can really distinctly see the front paws, but also the large black spots along the back where bobcats have also in a lot of our wild cats have young that have black spots on them. It's camouflage, so they blend in. But bobcat kittens have much smaller black spots and lots more spots compared to cougar kittens. Also, bobcats have a white patch of hair right behind their ears. And even at a young age, they will have that white patch of fur on the back sides of their ears. So in this case, I can see the, white back side of the ears. And one of the photos, I can see the large black spots. You can see the heavily built front end. And actually, in one of the pictures, I can see the long tail of a cougar cat or kitten, as well. So they now have a much longer tail than a bobcat would.

Rachel
What is the length difference between a bobcat and a cougar.

Brian
When they get to be adult size? Obviously. And really no comparison. So we're talking most of your reproductive females are going to be right around that 100 pound mark. We have bobcats that are not approaching anywhere near that. So, you know, a big bobcat in the, is in the like the 30 pound range. I have seen a couple in my career that have reached low 40s. The biggest I can think of is one I weighed that was 42 pounds, but that was just a huge bobcat. You just don't see those very often. It's kind of like that 500 pound bear. They're they're out there, but you don't see very many of those.

Rachel
So more generally. So if you talk about cougars in Michigan just a little more generally, not just kittens. Up until now, all of the verified cougar sightings we've had in Michigan have been transient males. What does transient mean?

Brian
Well transient means or not setting up shop, you know, no home range, not setting up a household, not hanging out in any one area. And so we also have to caveat that a little bit is that not every cougar that we've had a sighting report for have we been able to document what the sex was. So but a handful that segment. So we have that dashboard and actually the help of Eric helped make that dashboard. So and it boy it's getting a lot of use I hear a lot about it. It's a great place for you to see how many confirmed Cougar reports are in Michigan, but only a handful of those have we've been able to actually verify the sex of the cougar. You can outwardly do it if you have the right shot of a cougar, but we always don't get those in the trail camera. They always don't show us their hind end with their tail out of the way, but where we've been able to do some DNA testing and then we've had a couple of ear tagged and one, radio collared over the years that we do know those animals are have been all males.

Eric
And just out of curiosity, for the one that was radio collared, how wide are the movements of that particular male cougar?

Brian
The animal came from South Dakota, so came on in the Upper Peninsula and got picked up on, I think, 3 or 4 different trail cameras in a couple different counties.

Eric
And that's probably a good thing to know, too, that that single cougar being picked up by multiple trail cameras a lot of times, you know, will have a confirmed sighting, but a lot of times it is just a single animal picked up by multiple sources.

Brian
Yeah. And you can really track that. If you looked at our that dashboard and you started picking the dates and then look at where the dots show up. A lot of times you can see basically the movement of a single animal getting picked up by multiple trail cameras as it's traveling.

Rachel
Are most of these cougars that we're getting observations of across the U.P.? Are most of them coming from South Dakota, or are they just kind of coming from that region?

Brian
Yeah, we don't know. The ones that I've been able the DNA test and DNA has come a long ways. Before where it DNA tested animals, we could get that they are western origin. And so why is that important? The one thing we wanted to make sure is if we were seeing South American blood, in these in these cats, that probably represents captive animals, because that's where most of the captive, zoo cougars come from is South America. So we're not we didn't see that in any of our. So they represent they are a true wild, mountain lion or cougar. But now testing has even gotten better that they can probably start to tell us what state they even came from. But at the time, the last time we've sent stuff in for DNA that that that ability wasn't there. But like I said, the work in, genetics has come so far.

Rachel
And how do you get cougar DNA?

Brian
Well, a number of ways. So we've in Michigan, we've had a couple carcasses that were recovered. Both animals were unfortunately poached. So we were able to get DNA off of those. We've also been able to get some DNA from some hair samples, and even scat samples. And even now there's a new thing called eDNA. And so if we're able to get to some fresh tracks and carefully scrape up this top layer of snow that's in the track, we can actually amplify that. The DNA samples left in each footprint, and do a species, analysis and tell what species made that and likely get the sex of it. So I was hoping to do that in the northern Lower Peninsula, where during our wolf survey this past winter. Unfortunately, we just didn't get any tracks that, warranted, the expense of doing that kind of work. It's a technique I'm going to try to use with this cougar is if right now I want to leave her alone, I don't want to mess with her. And that's what I've been kind of reminding the general public. Is that one, you can't trespass because we've had a bunch of trespass issues, and these are an endangered species in Michigan, so you don't you can't go harass them, go looking for the den site, chasing them around that that's illegal. And really with those young cubs, you know, we really don't want to bother her. You know, we're hoping that their cubs are surviving. We're hoping they made up with the female. And like I said before, I'm hoping I get that picture. But if down the road now, we get a, you know, back end, start getting in the April and we get some light snow and we can find some fresh tracks in there. I would love to try that, eDNA technique to verify that female is there.

Rachel
I want to go back just really briefly. So we with this photo, we cannot confirm a breeding population of cougars in Michigan, correct?

Brian
Correct. So like I said, cougars have about a three month gestation period so she could have bred in some other state. You got a bred in Michigan too. We just with that we probably will never be able to confirm. You know, at least at this time now, at this individual maybe down the road we will but and at this time, at least on the scientific end of things, we can't even confirm reproduction until we get that confirmation, either through DNA or through just a photograph picture.

Rachel
And hypothetically, if you could confirm reproduction or a breeding population, what implications would that then have?

Brian
Well, at this stage, we're still talking individual cougars. So we're not talking I wouldn't even call it a population. I call it more individuals. So if we got that picture or we did that DNA, that would confirm that at that time, that day, there are three cougars in the state of Michigan. It doesn't really tell us any more insight on how many more cougars there might be. Now with the wolf abundance cameras that we have out there, and so we have over 1200 cameras out there  we're probably going to pick up some cougars on those cameras. In fact, I know we did on some of the cameras. We even picked up a Lynx, which is even more rare, in the state of Michigan. So we're still talking individuals. You know, I've heard this whole theory of the DNR doesn't want to acknowledge they're here, that that's just false. We've been saying there's cougars in Michigan since 2004. You know, and could there have been prior to that? Sure. Certainly. There could have been. I mean, my own mom said that she saw a cougar when she was in high school. Maybe she did. I don't know, I wasn't there, so, you know, we've probably had animals and individuals filtering into the state of Michigan. All along. It's just now we're getting to that point. We got trail cameras. The price point of trail cameras has come down so much. And people used to be kind of rare to even have one. Now people have multiple cameras. Some guys have gone. It's a big hobby where they have 30, 40 cameras. And it's just they like to run around and see what they can get on their cameras. So you look at that, you look at we have a lot of coyote trappers out in the state of Michigan. Would they have not picked up a cougar? We haven't had any roadkill cougar. So you look, you can look at the Florida panther, which is an endangered species and not very many in that population, but yet they get roadkill fairly frequently. Unfortunate. For those, cam cats in Florida, we're not getting that in Michigan, so I just don't we just don't have the evidence to support the claims that there's this big population of cougars in the state of Michigan that that evidence just is not there.

Rachel
Yeah. Thank you for that information. It is really interesting. We talk about the use of technology and wildlife spotting is pretty frequently on our side of things. Just because, you know, we see so many photos, especially in the last like five years, we've seen so many photos come in of wildlife in downtown areas, urban areas. And it's like, you know, there's an explosion of these animals and may maybe or maybe we just now are seeing these photos too, because they're coming in through ring doorbell cameras and security cameras where that technology just wasn't as available to capture what was actually happening there just a few years ago. So it is really interesting to see the evolution of this modern camera technology as it correlates with wildlife observations. And then what that tells us, as wildlife scientists and experts about what populations may or may not be doing.

Brian
Yeah, it's a it's it's a great thing. So we have that eyes on the field where, anybody can submit their cougar observation. And so and you can submit lynx observations as well. And so if you submit evidence, you will get a response from me. So we do review all evidence and I do it on a monthly basis. So I'm not monitoring it every day. But the first of the month, I send out all the evidence that was submitted to our eyes in the field, to our cougar team, and we go through all those pictures. And like I said, you will get a reply on what we if we can positively identify it. Great. So sometimes the photo quality's not quite there. It makes it a little bit harder. And then of course, I look at probably conservatively, 5-600 pictures. Just sent me an email of what is this? I call them UFOs. Unidentified furry objects.

Rachel
Clever. Well, you know, more generally, what are some common misconceptions about cougars here in Michigan? And what do you want people to know about their presence?

Brian
Well, one of the the big misconceptions is that they're extremely dangerous in that's just not true. You know, any wildlife has the potential to be dangerous. They don't have to have big, sharp claws and teeth to be dangerous. All wildlife should be treated with respect, you know, don't approach them. Don't try to pet them, those kinds of things. But when reality. Yeah, cougars have attacked human beings and have caused some mortality in North America in the past. But so I have, you know, there's been a lot of attacks by Canada geese, and other critters. So in deer, I mean, in Alaska, moose are considered the most dangerous mammal out there. It's not grizzly bears, but it's people not treating those animals with respect and trying to get approached them in most of the time. And it really you have a better chance of getting struck by lightning than attacked by a wolf or a cougar, particularly in the state of Michigan. And we're talking so much. The other myth I hear is that we have this widespread population of cougars in the state of Michigan. We've already kind of covered, we just don't have the evidence to support those claims.

Rachel
So you said we don't have the evidence of this expansive cougar population that we hear we might have from people. Do we have the habitat to support a cougar population?

Brian
Yeah. Just so happens, I'm a coauthor on a paper looking at habitat suitability for cougars in the state of Michigan. And it actually looked across the Great Lakes as well. And certainly we do have habitat, that could support that population. Now, whatever that population number would shake out at, we don't know that that's speculative at this time.

Brian
We can't even really say cougars are recolonizing because again, we just haven't had that evidence yet. But it does look like, you know, we've been seeing this eastward movement of cats, and when I say cats, cougars, you know, in the Minnesota and Wisconsin and then eventually into Michigan. We don't see cats moving from Ontario because they don't really have any population of mountain lions there. So they're just as interested in us, and they're kind of getting the same kind of reports like they coming out of Minnesota as well, coming into Ontario. So we're in contact with all those biologists around us at this kind of see what they're seeing, you know, and it kind of was a joke among the current of our biologists that in Michigan went first. I mean, it's kind of exciting because what I've told some other folks is that where in North America could you go and actually have a chance to see a moose, a wolf, a cougar, maybe even a lynx? There's just not many places in North America to have those four species. And we're lucky enough here in the U.P. to say that, yeah, that is there is that chance, albeit a rare chance. I mean, boy, you better buy a lottery ticket if you drive up to the U.P, you see all four species. But, that chance is there. And, you know, just having that chance and knowing that that possibility is there. It kind of says something special about the state of Michigan and the pristine habitat we do have available here in the Upper Peninsula.

Rachel
But you are absolutely correct. It is profound to have all of those species and more. Well, Brian, thank you so much. This is a fascinating conversation and a species that we don't often talk about. So it was awesome to learn from you and have you share your insights. I certainly enjoyed listening to it and appreciate your time telling us more about cougars in Michigan and what these kittens mean for our state.

Announcer
Michigan.gov/DNRTrails is your destination for trail maps, trail etiquette, and trail closure information. Trail information for biking, cross-country skiing, horseback riding, hiking, off road vehicle riding, snowmobiling, snowshoeing, and even water trails for kayaking and canoeing are available. While you're there, remember to check out information about pet friendly recreation, track chairs, and the Iron Belle Trail, all available at michigan.gov/DNRTrails.

Rachel
Now is your opportunity to win a WildTalk Podcast mug, as a thank you to our listeners will be giving away a mug or two every episode. Our March mug winners are Rob Kosi-Moore and Matt Dole. Check your email as we'll be getting in touch with you soon. They answered the question what are moose antlers made of? The answer we were looking for, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, is bone like any other parts of the animal skeleton. Until we entered into the drawing this month. Test your wildlife knowledge and answer our wildlife quiz question. This month's question is because we were just talking about fossil records, we thought this would be appropriate. According to fossil records, Sandhill cranes have been around for how many years?

Rachel
We'll give you some options, so choose from one of these four. Is it A) 500,000 years? B) 1 million years C) 2.5 million years, or D) 5 million years? Once you have that answer, email your name and answer to us at DNR-wildlife@michigan.gov to be entered for a chance to win a mug. Be sure to include the subject line as "mug me". We cannot emphasize those directions any more. If the subject line does not say mug me, it is not considered. So make sure you got that right and submit those answers to us by April 15th. We will announce winners and the answer on next month's podcast, so be sure to listen in to see if you've won and for the next quiz question.

Eric
Good luck everyone!

Announcer
Michigan conservation officers are working hard to protect and keep the outdoors safe for current and future generations. If you witness a natural resources violation, you can call or text the Report All Poaching Hotline 24 hours a day at 1-800-292-7800, or fill out the complaint form available at michigan.gov/RAP. If you would like more information on becoming a Conservation Officer, click on become a CO at michigan.gov/conservationofficers.

Rachel
And now is the time we show our appreciation for those who have donated to support our Non-game wildlife fund. To celebrate the 50th anniversary of Michigan's Endangered Species Law. An enormous thank you to last month's donor, Patty Hawk-Maloosh. Your support makes a huge difference in conserving our state's most vulnerable species. Now, remember, if you want to hear your name read on air, then you can visit michigan.gov/wildlife and click on the link to donate. We look forward to adding more names to this list next episode.

Eric
Yeah, and I think maybe we should just take a second to note that she gave the largest donation that we have seen so far. And if you want to see how much she donated, if you go to Michigan.gov/Wildlife and you click on the link to donate up at the top, you can see a list of her as well as all of our previous donors and what they donated, right there at that link.

Rachel
Yes. So our sincerest thank you's to Patty and to everyone who has donated since we started this last September. We have raised $1,341 so far. It's pretty awesome. Well, thank you for joining us on this April edition of the WildTalk Podcast. Remember, if you have questions about wildlife or hunting, you can call (517) 284-9453 or email us at DNR-wildlife@michigan.gov. We will see you back here in May.

Announcer
This has been the WildTalk podcast, your monthly podcast airing the first of each month and offering insights into the world of wildlife across the state of Michigan. You can reach the Wildlife Division at (517) 284-9453 or DNR-wildlife@michigan.gov.