Southwest habit, the Wilson's snipe, and firearm deer season

In this episode of the Wildtalk Podcast, we talk to Michael MacEachron about the work going on in southwest Michigan. We follow that up with a chat about the Wilson's snipe. Finally, we have a lengthy talk with Brent Rudolph about all things deer here in Michigan. 

Episode Hosts: Rachel Lincoln and Eric Hilliard
Producer/editor: Eric Hilliard

• All things habitat
  • Karner blue butterflies
• All things feathers
  • Wilson's snipe
• All things fur
  • Michigan.gov/Deer
  • Report your harvest
  • Disease and testing info

Questions or comments about the show? Contact the DNR Wildlife Division at 517-284-9453 (WILD) or email dnr-wildlife@michigan.gov.

Transcript

Speaker

You know what that sound means. It's time for the Michigan DNR's WildTalk podcast. Welcome to the WildTalk podcast where representatives from the DNR Wildlife Division chew the fat and shoot the scat about all things habitat, feathers and fur. With insights, interviews and your questions answered on the air. You'll get a better picture of what's happening in the world of wildlife here in the great state of Michigan.

*Transition music

Rachel

Hello everyone and welcome to the WildTalk Podcast. This is your host, Rachel Lincoln, bringing you the November episode. And here with me today is my co-host, Eric Hilliard.

Eric

The firearm deer season is right around the corner.

Rachel

Most certainly that November 15th. Basically a state holiday at this point. I know I was thinking about the November 15th holiday in preparation for this episode, and I started deer hunting at the age of 12. And I am certain that from 12 until I graduated at 17, I never attended school on a single November 15th and spent all of them in the woods with my dad, so.

Eric

You were a truant.

Rachel

A truant?

Eric

Yeah, I think that's the right term.

Rachel

Oh, truancy. Yeah, yeah. Well, I remember I went to a very small rural school shout out Spring Port. It was a great school. I loved it, but I mean, I had like 50 kids in my class and there was one year they were very concerned about not meeting quorum.

Eric

Oh, yeah.

Rachel

So many of us were going to be out for the firearm deer season.

Eric

Yeah, I know that was a very common experience too. Growing up in Northern Michigan, I had gosh, for some reason, I almost remember as a kid there actually not being school. Okay. On opening day of firearm deer season, I it could be one of those false memory things. But either way, yeah, the number of kids in school on November 15th who were of hunting age vanishingly small.

Rachel

Yeah.

Eric

Yeah

Rachel

Yeah, it is a fun time, certainly for deer hunters. It's a fun time for us. I mean, I look forward to November for the work that we do pretty much all year. I mean, it's fun we get to engage with hunters in a really fun way. I like what we're talking about this time of year. It feels so like relevant to our personal hobbies and things. So it's just I don't know November is a good month.

Eric

Yeah, yeah, November is definitely a good month. And especially now, it seems like the shift in the fall happens later and later and fall is honestly one of my favorite seasons in general for a variety of reasons. And it feels like November just feels more like fall, where as a kid I remember October feeling more fall ish. Particularly like mid the end of October. But I don't know these days the, the warm weather just seems to drag on a bit longer.

Rachel

Yeah, I would agree with that. Our really my best gauge now is, we have I have one tree in my backyard and it's a Sugar maple tree. And so and it's just truly an exquisite tree. Like, it's really, really beautiful. And we just pray nothing ever happens to it, but it doesn't feel like fall until it's leaves change and they fall. And that doesn't happen until mid-November. So I agree, this is the time of year when it starts to feel like fall, though I am seeing some fall like activity. So I was driving into our office this morning and I was driving north and I-69 and saw the Sandhill crane migration happening like I've never seen it before. I bet I saw 5,000 Sandhill cranes migrating over some of them, in fact, some of them in straight lines. But it was like one of those things you're like, oh, it's a bird. Oh another bird. Oh my gosh, more birds. All these birds. And then you just notice that you were just in this flock of cranes. It was incredible.

Eric

Yeah. It's like that one video that I took, it's been a handful of years ago now that I sent to you and Holly and Hannah of the same thing. Sandhill crane migration. I'd never witnessed anything like it. Ever. So many. And it sounded so weird.

Rachel

Yes, you can hear it.

Eric

It was, like, eerie. How how loud it was in. The funny thing was, as I didn't even break my phone out until, like, half of it was overhead and it still went on for forever. So it was, man, if you ever find yourself in one of those situations, consider yourself lucky, because I've, you know, I that was the first time that that ever happened to me. That was probably, I don't know, six, seven years ago now. And it hasn't happened to me since and it never happened to me before. So I hope that I'm lucky enough to witness something like that again, because it was truly incredible.

Rachel

Yeah, yeah, I've really enjoyed it this year. I don't know if if I'm noticing things a little bit different this time of year or what, but it feels like I'm picking up on the migration a little bit more than I have in years past. So obviously the Sandhill cranes this morning. But the Turkey vulture migration, that is kind of at the end of it now. But for a while there I was, you know, you just casually walk into the backyard and there would be like 20 turkey vultures just overhead at any given time. And I never really think about turkey vultures migrating. That's not like, yeah, a species I really consider, you know. Oh, we should watch for it. Get hit in the backyard as it migrates through.

Rachel

But their migration this year was also amazing to watch. And it's probably because these are bigger birds right. So they so much more visual. But it it's been just a fantastic fall for bird watching. We've got a great November episode lined up for you. And we are excited to have two guests on the show today. We have Mike MacEachron from the Southwest region. He's here to talk with us about some happenings for wildlife at the Flat River Field Office, and some other really cool projects happening for wildlife in the southwest portion of the state. Then we will go on a snipe hunt.

Eric

Ooo snipe. I found the snipe!

Rachel

There are snipes and you can actually find them in Michigan, so we will tell you all about that.

Eric

Are they as big as the snipe in the movie up?

Rachel

No. Oh gosh, I wish they were. They probably be much easier to find probably.

Eric

Yeah.

Rachel

Much less colorful. Way more camouflaged here. But nonetheless, they are real birds. And you can see them here.

Eric

And they're cool.

Rachel

Oh my gosh, I can't wait to talk about them. I loved learning about them for this episode. They've probably moved into my number two spot for favorite birds, so.

Eric

Wow, that's saying something.

Rachel

It really is.

Eric

I think people do not want to miss that segment of the show.

Rachel

Tune in to learn more about Snipes. Then we'll pivot to the 'All Things Fur' segment where we'll chat with Brent Rudolph, our deer, elk, and moose management specialist. Brent will be here to talk the deer season and help get you prepared for the firearm deer season opener later this month. And of course, later in the episode, you will have your chance to win a WildTalk Podcast camp mug. So you want to stick around for our trivia question and your chance to win a mug. But before we dive into the episode, here's a plug for the wildlife habitat plate.

Speaker

Hey Michigan drivers, a little bird told me your license plate can do more than just tag your car. The wildlife habitat plate featuring the iconic Kirtland's warbler helps protect Michigan's nongame fish and wildlife through the Nongame Fish and Wildlife Trust Fund. But hurry, this plate is changing soon. Want to keep the warbler flying? You can even get one as a collector's item no car required. Support Michigan's wildlife and get your plate before this bird flies away. Visit michigan.gov/SOS.

Rachel

Today we've got Mike MacEachron, on with us. He is from the Flat River field office, where he is a wildlife technician and he's here to tell us about the wildlife happenings in the southwest region. So thanks so much for joining us, Mike. Yeah.

Mike

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Rachel

All right. Why don't you start off with telling us just about what's happening in the region, any particular projects you're working on and why they're important for this time of year?

Mike

Yeah, lately I've been working on a few different but connected projects centered around land use, habitat, and really taking care of the the places that we manage. So the Flat River Field office, we manage roughly 35,000 acres across eight state game areas. So some of the projects include resolving trespass issues on public land, working on land acquisitions, and then doing some restoration work for the Karner-blue butterfly through wild lupin, propagation and habitat management.

Rachel

And you mentioned land acquisitions. Does that mean you're going to be adding state land to your area soon?

Mike

Yeah. Well, once we find a good fit or our staff will complete a biological review, go through the public lands process, try to secure funding and and sometimes it works out, other times it doesn't.

Rachel

You know, once you have acquired these state lands, something that our DNR staff, especially wildlife staff, have to deal with frequently, even though it may not be super exciting. Is trespass issues right? That is that something your office is spending a lot of time on this right now?

Mike

Yes. And so with trespass, they're talking about things like unintentional mowing trails or structures that may cross on the public land. And sometimes we'll find these during our compartment review process. Other times we're just out in the field looking over timber sales. And if something looks off, we'll bring in a surveyor to to check those boundaries. And if it turns out there is a trespass, it's it's our responsibility to kind of step in and work with that landowner and resolve those issues. But, you know, honestly, a big part of this is about safety and fairness with with trespass resolutions. But because public land belongs to all of us and we work hard to make sure our public land boundaries are clearly marked for public land users and the private landowner next door. So having clear lines helps avoid conflict, keeps people safe, and ensures everyone knows how the land is meant to be used.

Rachel

Yeah, I remember a few years ago I believe it was up in the thumb area. We had somebody that had emailed in a photo from what they thought was public land, but it had no trespassing signs up as private property. It turns out it was public land that somebody had gone out and put up no trespassing signs, kind of trying to keep that to themselves, which that would be classified as a trespass issue. Right? Like even though it's not technically trespassing, they've marked that land off. And in a way that's unfair for use for everyone, right?

Mike

Correct. Yeah. So no trespassing signs, trails if there's some mowing in a in a specific area ORVs. More recently we've had some RV's going into some wetland areas because it's a little bit drier right now and they are able to access those sites. So we really want to keep our, you know, the habitat undisturbed and clearly mark those boundaries so that, you know, public land users can use them in a way that it's it's meant to be used.

Rachel

With, you know, the projects that you just mentioned, how tell us more about how that impacts the wildlife in those areas.

Mike

So with trespass resolutions or trespass issues, you know, we're really trying to reduce disturbance. Even something simple as is mowing can have an impact on nesting birds or native plant communities. And when we prevent those kinds of disruptions, it makes a difference for species that need uninterrupted habitat. And then with land acquisitions, it helps us connect those habitats and manage them more effectively. It opens up more space for people who utilize public land, whether that's access or just space in general. And if that's for the users that are hunting, hiking, wildlife viewing, or just enjoying the outdoors, it's really a win for both people and wildlife.

Rachel

Well thank you, Mike. Really appreciate you coming on and telling us about the different things your office and your area have been working on. We're big fans of the work southwest is doing so. Thanks for sharing.

Mike

Yeah, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Rachel

All right, folks, don't fly away. All things feathers is coming up next.

Speaker

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*Transition music

Rachel

Well today we're going on a snipe hunt.

Eric

Oh, that brings me back. I remember as a teenager, my step brother and his girlfriend coming up from Detroit, and her going out at night with a burlap sack to hunt snipe was, you know, kind of a that that was my first introduction to snipe. But that's not the kind of snipe that we're talking about here, where you go around with the burlap sack here, snipe, snipe snipe snipe.

Rachel

So no, it is not today we are talking about the Wilson's snipe, which is actually a real bird. You can go out on a hunt for and find here in Michigan. Wilson's snipe looks I said it was at the top of the show. I said that was like quickly becoming one of my favorite birds and that's true. So it looks just like my favorite bird, which is?

Eric

The Woodcock.

Rachel

The woodcock. Yes. I'm a big fan of the timber doodle, the American woodcock. I find them to be just the cheekiest, cutest plumpest little birds. And now I know that the Wilson's snipe is basically a copy and paste.

Eric

Yeah, I hear Wilson's snipe, and all I think of is the movie Castaway and Wilson and it having a bird named after it. Now, it's probably not the same Wilson though right.

Rachel

Now it's probably not named after a friendly volleyball.

Eric

Yeah. Okay. Good.

Rachel

So the snipes are an actual species of bird that we have here in Michigan, but going on a snipe hunt is a cheeky expression. One might say, to kind of encourage someone to take a walk, spend some time looking for an imaginary bird that doesn't exist.

Eric

But the Wilson's snipe does exist. And you can hunt it.

Rachel

You can hunt it. In fact, there are still a couple of days left to the snipe hunting season here in Michigan. So if you are interested, you can find those regulations in the waterfowl regulations summary. Now the expression going on a snipe hunt actually dates all the way back to medieval times. So this has been a bit of an ongoing joke for many centuries. And it comes from a common practice among hunters who would send the newbies, the inexperienced hunters on fake hunts for non-existent animals basically as like a hazing ritual. This little prank involves sending someone out into the woods, typically at night, with a bag or a net, and instructing them to catch these elusive creatures while making loud noises or calling out their names, so.

Eric

And it was a tradition that continued even when I was a teenager, many, many years ago.

Rachel

Yeah. Over time, the term snipe hunt became pretty synonymous with any kind of trickery or tomfoolery or any kind of business to fool someone into believing in something that does not actually exist. And if you've ever seen the movie Up, this is basically the plot line to that Disney movie, which led to arguably one of the greatest Disney characters of all time, Kevin.

Eric

Yes, Kevin the snipe.

Rachel

Now, I mentioned these birds look like woodcocks and they really do. So they are these plump little loaf looking birds. They have very long, skinny bills and even longer skinny yellow legs. They have eyes that are set pretty far back on their head so that they can see almost 360 degrees around. And that's so when their long, skinny bills are probing the soil for worms or other invertebrates. They can see any potential predators that are sneaking up behind them. Their their bills are so strange. So we'll spend a second chatting about them. So they have these almost four inch long, pencil thick beaks and they can stab them into the ground. And then the very ends of the beak can open and close like tiny tweezers, so that they can grab a worm. And then they slurp it up through their long, skinny beak, and they never have to pull the beak out of the ground in order to eat food. Now, also similar to woodcock, the Wilson snipe is very well camouflaged, so they're sort of a mottled brownish blackish grayish. And so 

Rachel

So while woodcocks look similar, they live in upland forests or in fields prairies basically dry habitats. The Wilson's snipe is a shorebird, and so it spends the majority of its time in or near wetlands, particularly along the shore. You can see these birds honestly, pretty easily if you know where to look and when to look. So these birds are singers and they will perch themselves on trees, often on like docks, like boat ramps. Those large wood.

Eric

Pylons?

Rachel

Pylons. Yes. So these like exposed areas where they can perch out in the open and sing this kind of throaty chortle during the spring breeding season in an attempt to draw mates so you can spot them in the spring, you know, as they're they're calling their singing. They also do a variation of a flying dance.

Eric

But they don't peent like, like a woodcock.

Rachel

They do not peent. So I mean, that's would have put them into my number one bird category.

Eric

If they also painted.

Rachel

If they also painted, they do not. They have like a throaty chuckle, which I can also appreciate.

Eric

Did you listen to the throaty chuckle?

Rachel

I did listen to the throaty.

Eric

Is it enjoyable?

Rachel

It's like you would be pleased to hear it and you would. You'd be able to identify what you were listening to.

Eric

Nice. For those of you listening, if you look in these show notes, you will find a link that where you can listen to the throaty chuckle. Is that how you described it?

Rachel

That is how I described it, yes.

Eric

The throaty chuckle of the Wilson's snipe.

Rachel

The other major distinction for how to identify these birds is the very obvious stripes that they have on their head. So from their bill all the way to the back of their head, there are these dark brown stripes, and so you can get a sense of if it's a small brownish bird, it's got a long pointy bill, it's got long yellowy legs and a couple of banded stripes on its head along the shoreline. You have done it. You have gone on a snipe hunt and you have found the snipe.

Eric

Just look for the snipe with a stripe, a snipe stripe.

Rachel

A snipe stripe. Well, snipes are a very fascinating part of Michigan's wetlands. And honestly, just a great reminder that there's always something new to discover outdoors.

Speaker

3,300 miles of Great Lakes shoreline, 11,000 inland lakes, 56,000 miles of rivers and streams. Fish? Too many to count. All you need to do is grab your gear, buy your fishing license and get out there. Get your Michigan fishing license in store in the Michigan DNR Hunt Fish app or online at michigan.gov/dnrlicenses.

*Transition music

Rachel

Today we're talking with Brent Rudolph the Michigan DNRs deer, elk and moose management specialist. November is the month of deer. As for so many of our listeners, but also for us as for DNR staff, and so we're very happy to have Brent on here to answer some questions about the upcoming November 15th firearm deer season opener. And kind of give us a look at how deer season this fall has gone overall. So thank you, Brent, for joining us. We appreciate you being here.

Brent

Yeah. No problem. It's it is an exciting time of year and always happy to talk to people, keep them informed about what's going on in our woods and forests and fields these days.

Rachel

Well, let's start with hearing a little bit more about you. So you have a bit of some history working in conservation here in Michigan. So tell us about yourself and what ultimately led you to this position with the DNR.

Brent

Yeah. So this is not my first time with DNR or with the Wildlife Division specifically. I actually started my professional career here in Michigan with the DNR. Originally actually at the tail end of the last century, which sounds like a long time ago, but I started with Wildlife Division. I was the habitat biologist at our Waterloo Field office Jackson County. Started in summer of 99 and then went on to a few different positions after that. A lot of that early that first stint with DNR was as the deer research specialist with the division. So work pretty closely with the deer program in the past. And then in 2017, I had the opportunity to move on and shift into a role in nongovernment organization work and thought about that a bit, but did make that move. So I worked for about four years with Ruffed Grouse Society and American Woodcock Society. I still lived here in Michigan, but it was a national position, did a fair bit of traveling around, and then I switched in about for work for about four years with P

Rachel

Yeah, we are certainly happy to have you back. Now, coming from RGS and Pheasants Forever, I can only assume you are a bird hunter.

Brent

I am. I enjoy a lot of, a wide variety of hunting pursuits, but definitely bird hunting upland and hunting is a big one for me. I have two English setters, ten year old and a five year old a dog, so I keep them as busy as I can. We're actually pretty active year round. I'm a I'm a runner as well, and run pretty regularly with dogs. So they're a big part in my life, and the family life. But yeah, I'm I deer hunt as well and and enjoy a variety of other pursuits turkey hunting and my favorite all time hunt I would say was in Montana, elk hunt in 2013. A friend and I planned that relatively remotely and had a really great time packing everything in on foot and packing out everything on foot as well. So that still goes down as my all time favorite hunting experience.

Rachel

I am always amazed with the ability to pack out big game animals from those mountainous regions, and just the level of physicality involved. I mean, elk are no small animal, right? So how many pounds of meat did you have to carry out?

Brent

About 400,000 pounds of meat. I think it was less than that. It was a young bull. But, yeah, it was only one of us was successful. Was my hunting partner, I should say only one of us was successful in taking an elk. It was again, as I would define, the one of the most successful hunting trips ever. You know, it's it. We're kind of spoiled in Michigan. There's plenty, of course, very remote places you could go in Michigan. And I would find myself now and then and, you know, pretty backwoods areas thinking about pulling a deer out of some of those locations. And after bringing that that elk in from the mountains, I looked at it a whole different way. It was a great learning experience to to navigate. Yeah.

Rachel`

Yeah. That's awesome. Well, back to Michigan now. It's only November 1st, so the archery season is still ongoing. So have you. Can you give us any inside looks as to how the archery season has gone so far this year?

Brent

As we were in the early parts of archery season opening on October 1st, we were sitting at about 8% increase in the number of people that had purchased a deer license compared to the same time last year. So plenty of people with an interest in getting out there and participating in deer hunting this year. Of course, as we near the firearm opener, we get a big peak in sales. So we'll see whether with that spike that always comes every year, whether we keep, you know, on par with the prior year. We also early into the archery season saw fewer deer harvest reports. So, you know, both hunters are reporting their their harvest after taking the deer, as we have been doing for several years here in Michigan, we were down about 14% or so a week into the archery season. A lot of folks are asking about that now. We we open Archer season in the middle of the week, and we had 80 degree really warm temperatures. That tends to decrease the activity. Both of deer hunters and of deer. Another week into the archery season, w

Brent

And we began to see a little bit of a of a rebound. So, yeah, overall, you know, we expect it to be a pretty good season. All told throughout all of the seasons for 2025. But there's always unpredictability, especially you know you talk about the experience of every individual hunter out there and what they might see when they they go out and pursue their activities in deer, in deer hunting this year.

Rachel

Yeah. So given, you know, the current conditions and deer movement patterns during this time of year, what advice would you give for hunters who are getting out into the field now?

Brent

Yeah. So as we look, you know, late October and early November, one, one big factor we always bring out, I think a lot of hunters realize this, if they're in a heavy agricultural setting, is what kind of condition they're seeing with corn harvest being down, you know, standing when you if you're in an area with a lot of standing corn, it does provide a lot of cover for deer. If it stays up long, that could be problematic because it's hard to push deer out of those some of those fields. At the same time, if it all comes down, then if you happen to be in an area that's got some good permanent cover, woodlot and other places with a little bit more of an area that's drawing deer activity in at that time, that could be good for you. But if not, you know it could be a negative as well. So we say the ideal is like a sweet spot where you get a little bit of standing corn cover that continues to distribute deer in those agricultural areas. And, and that tends to keep, keep them a little bit more spread out, a little 

Eric

So...

Brent

Apart from that, again, I'm. Oh yeah. Go ahead.

Eric

I was just going to ask what what what's something that might delay that corn because you're talking about the you know, if there's still standing corn, what tends to delay that, that harvest.

Brent

Yeah. It's largely whatever the it's largely factors that reach that the drying state that farmers need before they bring it out. So as we were getting into the start, I think we were running a little bit ahead of harvest compared to the year prior. You know, we've had some pretty dry conditions again, but it varies a little bit depending on whether folks are the the ultimate use of where that corn is destined and has a little bit of factor into when people make a choice to pull that out of the field as well. You know, apart from that, we obviously always have hunters thinking about what fall mast conditions are like. So mast acorns, you know, out on the ground they concentrate deer together. Again. We try to get general reports from the field as to what those conditions look like. You know, most places it's not uncommon that it could be fairly spotty.

Brent

You know, there's even micro factors in climate that affect how productive oak trees are with acorns. But it looked to be a generally pretty good year. Again, that could be great if you're heading those places where deer coming through, if you happen to be a place that's not got that natural food resource, then deer might be drawn away from your individual location. Again, I think most hunters recognize that, but being aware of it as you head in and you know, of course, when we begin to see deer moving more from the rut and responding to that breeding activity, they're not as attentive to food, especially bucks. They're kind of more out moving out and about where does might be. And so that's going to change. That could change pretty abruptly when you might see deer using an area at one time. And all of a sudden now what the heck--- they they don't seem to be around here anymore. So staying attentive to those factors and on top of what seems to be the shifting pattern that's pretty common through this period 

Rachel

Typically is there usually like a, like a temperature drop that signifies the start of the rut or kind of a week we typically expect it to start. Or is it just kind of in this like end of October, early November four week time frame?

Brent

Yeah. It's pretty it's pretty well timed more on kind of photo period. So the time of the year and the amount of the amount of daylight you get really drives what season and so forth we're in. You know deer that the ideal is to have a relatively synchronized breeding period, which puts fawns on the ground around the same time and around an ideal time for them to have sufficient resources. And and nursing does have sufficient resources. The temperature factor really is a little bit more on the activity you know, if it just stays unseasonably warm, as I mentioned, early archery season had highs in the 80s. And you know, nighttime is not getting very cool, then that tends to suppress activity to where you're going to make shorter trips and movements out during the day. They'll stay mostly active at night, but the time that they might be pushed into those breeding activities is relatively focused on on time of year, regardless of what the the weather's doing that might shift when they're moving within a particul

Rachel

Now, what else might folks see changing as we shift, you know, from summer into fall, the seasonal shift?

Bremt

Well, another thing that's going to be big for this year. It's becoming increasingly important in many years is when we get our first frost hard and widespread frost. Folks are probably aware we can talk about a little bit more that we've had in the summer of 25 another outbreak of episodic hemorrhagic disease, or EHD. That disease is transmitted by biting midges, midges that bite and transmit the disease to deer, and they are very susceptible to frost. So when we get that first frost on, those adult midges die off, that'll kind of end the cycle of that outbreak. And so we've had some different experiences. Summer to summer is very a little bit, but this has been a not insignificant year for EHD. So Frost coming on is going to shut that down. And we'll be happy to see that.

Eric

A lot of times we'll get emails from hunters that maybe think we as an agency should be doing more to combat EHD. Is there really anything that we can do to to control or stop EHD from occurring during these warmer periods?

Brent

Yeah, it's a good question, Eric. And certainly we see diseases in general becoming a bigger factor not only for deer but for a variety of wildlife management issues when it comes to deer. EHD, really is one that we are pretty much susceptible to the whims of weather patterns. It is not sustained in our deer population. There's not a disease agent within deer that is sustained year after year. It emerges when we have a higher abundance of those midges, and weather is a big driver of that. So typically the worst conditions for EHD are when we have a wet spring that gets a lot of rain out, distributed out on the ground, and then we get a hot and dry summer. What happens is that that standing water gets drawn down. We get a lot of mud flats. There's still moist soil, mud in other places, but not standing water. And that's the kind of conditions that these midges breed in. So it's purely a factor when we got conditions that lead to a big explosion of those insects, it also is going to lead to a big explosion of 

Brent

And then it's more likely that more deer are going to be bit and end up coming down with the EHD. You know, folks have asked a little bit about different ways to treat to try and kill midges, you know, doing an environmental wide application of pesticides, really not a very feasible factor. You look at things like communities trying to treat for mosquitoes to control West Nile virus. You know, they can focus it on places where mosquitoes breed and where there's a lot of people around, but they're not going to overall depress mosquito populations across an entire state or region, even when it's a factor of a disease that could be, you know, a legitimate health risk to humans. So, yeah, unfortunately, it's really not something we have a lot of ability to manage. We can try to predict a little bit when it's occurring, but our main focus has been trying to communicate as best we can with the public about where we're seeing outbreaks. Let them use their judgment to consider how might or might not be impacted deer

Eric

Yeah. And just as a reminder, the public can see those those impacted counties at Michigan.gov/EHD, as well as the history throughout the years of of impacts of EHD throughout Michigan.

Brent

Yeah. That's right. We put out in September a press release when we confirmed the first cases. And that was just the first four counties. And then since then, you know, heading into mid-October, we were up to 14 counties confirmed. So we continue at that site, as you mentioned, direct to list in 2025, the number of counties confirmed, and they can look back through all the other prior years. How many in which counties have been confirmed in the past as well.

Rachel

Now, as a hunter, is there any concern over harvesting a deer with EHD.

Brent

Yeah. Great question. There are no human health concerns. I, like I mentioned, not either about coming down with EHD from those midges or from a deer. So we're reminding hunters, you know, they might if the outbreak is still ongoing when they're hunting, they might harvest a deer that had contracted EHD. It might not have any symptoms. They don't know. That's not anything to be concerned about. They're not going to get sick from consuming a deer that's been infected. At the same time, we always tell folks, if you do take a deer that looks sickly, or that when you're field dressing it, you see something that looks unusual, it's not worth consuming that animal. You know, being being safe is important. Contact us. We can work with hunters to determine, you know, work with them to determine if we can sort out what's going on. Obviously, take samples for testing of various things that might be occurring. So yeah, we always say if you're out there, if you happen to see a deer, it looks really skinny, disoriented o

Rachel

Okay. Good advice. Now, along the same vein, we've got two other diseases that are top of mind for quite a few deer hunters this time of year. Chronic wasting disease and bovine tuberculosis. So can you give us an update on those two diseases?

Brent

Yep. You bet. So looking at chronic wasting disease, first we have continued to document the presence of chronic wasting disease in Michigan. Again, in late September, we put out word that we had added an additional county to the list. Genesee County. We had our first free ranging deer confirmed positive with chronic wasting disease. In that instance. As you might suspect, from that time of year, I was actually someone in a residential community that observed a deer that was very skinny, could be walked up to. A conservation officer responded, was able to directly approach the animal, dispatch it, and take it in for testing. We don't know that that's necessarily a new emergence of chronic wasting disease there. We have tested deer in Genesee County in the past. Our surveillance strategy for CWD has been to collect kind of on a systematic basis from every county in Michigan, the number of samples that would allow us to determine if it's there at a moderate level of prevalence, you know, meaning a considerable

Brent

But when you have a first an outbreak first occurring, it can be very hard to discover. So all that being said, that's another important factor. We do have counties from which we are continuing to collect actively collect samples for chronic diseases from hunter harvested deer. There's a number of counties in the Upper Peninsula and then in the Lower Peninsula, Ogemaw and Iosco County are areas. So we asked folks to take a look at our surveillance goals and please participate and assist with reaching those goals. But apart from hunter harvest, we will still collect any deer that is behaving in a way that may be a chronic wasting disease again disoriented very skinny, easy to walk up to. We ask folks to please report those deer or if they harvest a deer that looks that way, please let us know.

Brent

We can collect samples. We also have been offering and continue to this year a free test kit. So if you don't happen to be hunting in a county that's we're doing the active surveillance from, you can still make contact with the DNR. We have a number of free test kits available. It will walk hunters through the process of collecting a lymph node, sending it in with a free provided overnight mailer, and they will receive the test results. So again, if you've got a deer that looks sick and there's something wrong with it, contact us, we'll work with you. But if you if you take a deer and you're just curious and say, I would like to know whether it has chronic wasting disease, even if I don't see any symptoms of it. You can get a free test kit and still have that deer tested. In terms of human health concerns, as we've continued to say, there's never been any evidence that chronic wasting disease is able to cross the species barrier and affect humans. But again, we always tell folks any deer that looks unusually

Rachel

And but that is not the case with bovine tuberculosis. Is that correct?

Brent

Yeah. That's right. So with with with bovine tuberculosis again, tuberculosis is a significant human health concern globally. There's a wide variety of animals that are affected by it. In the case with our deer herd, you know we became aware several decades ago about an ongoing outbreak of bovine tuberculosis that's sustained in our deer. So, again, we continue to have goals for working with hunters to collect samples from deer taken in northeast Michigan. We continue to advise hunters because of the presence of TB. You know, use gloves when you're field dressing deer. Be on the lookout. Reminded folks that there can be if a deer is infected with TB white nodules or lumps, kind of pea sized, white or yellowish lumps on any of the internal organs. But not all deer have that.

Brent

And, you know, there's a lot of stuff inside of deer when you open it up that you can convince yourself might be a TB nodule. That is not. So. Again, we always just advise folks it makes sense to be to to be safe, wear gloves, take note if you cut or nick your hand, you know in processing a deer, be aware of that. And again anything that looks like it might be TB affected, let us know. We'd be happy to collect samples and work with folks to keep them informed. You know, overall TB, if you are a hunter that's field dressed a deer with tuberculosis and you're concerned about exposure, you know, there's very reliable health treatments to prevent it from becoming a major issue. The main problem with TB is the is the version that is transmitted through breathing through respiration. So, you know, human crossover can come from things like if it's unknown in in cattle and you're in a barn with a sick animal breathing in and sharing air with you and so forth. So that's really the bigger problem with what we know as 

Rachel

Now looking forward, November 15th, basically a state holiday for us here in Michigan. What can hunters expect this November 15th firearm deer season?

Brent

Yeah. So I I'll sometimes joke with folks that the the putting out a season outlook or forecast usually reads like this. Okay deer numbers are down in some places, they're up in some places and they're about the same in others. And as it's not to make too light of it, you know, yes, we do try to monitor our deer population. We do try and monitor issues and opinions and ideas out there in the deer hunting community. And stay on top of that. But the bottom line is what we've identified. We did put out a season outlook this year. We identified what we call wild cards in each region. So kind of like a lousy magician. I might I might show the wild card to you. It may or may not be the card you were actually dealt. A but it might be a factor that's more of a concern in your particular region than others. So we've we've said really looking region by region.

Brent

Here's the three wild cards we identified. In the Upper Peninsula very often, the one big factor we look at is, is winter weather and winter at 24, 25. On some measures, looking at the number of days with heavy snowfall accumulated on the ground, it kind of approached what we would usually call a severe winter. You know, what the timing of weather and when things came on and when the snow broke up and everything was a little bit odd too. So overall, we don't think that winter was a big impact on deer in the U.P. and conditions in the spring and summer were pretty good growing conditions were pretty good to get the leg up on recovering. If they were. Winter is always a bit of a factor to a certain extent, but there may be some areas where it was more of a factor than others. So that's the wild card. If you happen to be in a place that had that heavier snow accumulation that stayed on the ground, it might have been a little bit of winter mortality. Young bucks might be a little smaller. Having a had a challeng

Brent

In northern Lower Peninsula, wild card really was a wild one this past spring. The ice storm that we experienced that impacted a number of counties in northern Lower Peninsula a little bit on the eastern up as well. That's not a factor. So much on deer as it is on accessibility. You know, there's still a lot of stuff down in the woods up there, but, you know, roads and and most major trails and other things are open. But if you haven't scouted out your spot to get into your hunting location or camp, probably take a look. It might not look like you have seen in previous years. And of course, that might affect deer distribution as well. Now, in the longer run that may be a positive for deer. You know, it's another form of disturbance that's going to lead to openings in the forest and young growth. And that'll benefit deer and a lot of other wildlife. But for this year, it might be harder to get into your hunting spot than it has been, or deer might be redistributed compared to what you'd usually seen.

Brent

Southern Lower Peninsula, the wild card is EHD, you know, we already talked about that disease a little bit, but to be more specific on its impacts, it does have pretty localized effects, but they can be pretty dramatic. So I talked at some length about the midges there in those those saturated moist soil areas in and around wetlands and river channels and other things. And if you happen to hunt in a spot that had a lot of those images and a lot of that outbreak, you might see quite a few less dear than you would like to or expect. But even those counties where we've confirmed it, you get away from some of those localized spots and back into the upland areas. There could be very little effect from EHD there. You know, as we've monitored in the past, we've seen some of the greatest outbreaks sometimes take 3 or 4 or 5 years for deer numbers to seem to rebound to what they were like, but they do reboundgiven that, again, it's not a disease sustained in in the deer population. But to the extent that it continue

Rachel

Now as hunters are, you know, considering those conditions you've just mentioned, they're scouting locations or getting ready to head into the field. Are there any key hunting regulations that they should be aware of this season?

Brent

So we haven't had a ton of changes for the 2025 season. You know, one that's kind of one of the biggest factors. If you're in the Upper Peninsula, you can now use a combination or regular deer license to take antlerless deer even in the late part of the archery season. So again, that's going to be kind of buried in details for folks that aren't U.P. hunters or don't have that history. But we have allowed bow hunters for in other regions of the state now to use those single deer or couple deer licenses for antlerless in the archery season. We had, not allowed that in that later---latter half of the archery season in the U.P. But that's that's open back up again. Not a lot of other changes, but there were quite a few in 2024. So we're continue to advise folks, you know make sure you remember or you know, if you happen to skip 24, make sure you take a look at the regs. You know, the Hunt Fish app is a great way to get that information. But the hunting regulation summaries are also available online or in some qu

Brent

Baiting rules. We continue to have a ban on baiting in the Lower Peninsula. It is allowed in limited quantities in the Upper Peninsula, so be aware of that. And then we really encourage folks again, depending on where they're hunting, to take a look at our testing goals for bovine tuberculosis and see it. So as they step through the regulations, or if they look at that season outlook report, it'll step through how they can find online all the latest details about surveillance and where they can bring a deer in to have testing completed.

Rachel

You know, Brent, you just mentioned, you know, there is a lot of opportunity to harvest antlerless deer. How important is it to have antlerless harvest for deer management?

Brent

Yeah. I mean antlerless harvest really is of all the things that affect deer, that we can't control antlerless harvest is one of the things that we can control. And so in general, there's a couple of ways to look at it. You know, some of the changes I referenced with allowing combination and regular deer licenses to take antlerless deer in the archery season, you know, those kinds of things don't add a whole lot to the deer harvest. So they're not a big factor for managing deer, but it gives hunters more flexibility. Deer populations, even if we're not actively trying to reduce them, they could still handle a pretty decent amount of antlerless harvest without impact. So we try and look at it two ways. One is providing flexibility so that if hunters are saying, you know, I've seen a quite a few deer around, I've seen does, I have this combo license.

Brent

I haven't been able to take a buck or take another buck, you know, go ahead and take an antlerless deer. It's an opportunity to stay out in the field. It's an opportunity to bring another deer home. And then our antlerless licenses really are more of the factor of reaching a harvest level that will allow us to control deer numbers. And there's a variety reasons that we want to do that in different areas, whether it's trying to address things like tuberculosis or chronic wasting disease, whether it's looking at the fact that deer crop damage levels in many agriculture communities are pretty high, we'd really rather that be addressed by hunters being able to control deer numbers a little more than having to deal with out of season permits and other things, but those are also legitimate tools for people to protect their livelihood. Increasing number of issues around urban communities. You know, there's some special rules and opportunities in those communities, but continue to keep deer numbers in their surround

Rachel

Lastly, what's on your mind as we move through the deer season? Are there any big priorities that you'll be focusing on for the deer program?

Brent

Well, one important thing is, you know, we do work on a cycle of a three year significant regulations package for deer hunting. We can change things outside of those cycles. We have major factors arise, but we try and kind of establish a three year package to have a little bit of stability for hunters. So we're going to be working on our 2026 through 2029 package of regulations. It will affect those those three seasons, you know, as this season is wrapping up, as we work through that process, the Natural Resources Commission actually sets all those hunting regulations. But we develop recommendations and work with them through establishing those. We have a deer advisory team. We have a Lower Peninsula and Upper Peninsula deer advisory team. That is a way we have used to add some public input to explore ideas and see where the hunting public comes out on different things we could put in place.

Brent

But any number member of the public can reach out to us. They can take the time to come and speak or listen at a Natural Resources Commission meetings when we move into those dates in the spring to set those regulations. So we really encourage people to weigh in and stay engaged in the process because, you know, the biologists have a really important role to play. But public opinions and ideas are important as well, and we want to be responsive to them.

Eric

So maybe we we wrap the conversation up with a question about sort of the end potentially of someone's hunting season. And that's that's harvest reporting. Obviously, you know, for the past few years we've been doing online harvest reporting. Kind of shifting away from the traditional survey system that we used to use. What is how important is it that hunters complete that harvest report? Is it a time consuming process, or is this something that is that is usually pretty quick, and if hunters have any issues with it, how can they---how can they get some assistance?

Brent

Yeah. So it's important for two reasons. Number one, it's important because it's required. It's mandatory to report your deer harvest. You need to report it within 72 hours of tagging a deer. There is support available in folks can call (517) 284-9453 if they need assistance, but on average it's about three minutes. The average is about three minutes to complete. The report and one of the biggest parts is just getting down to identifying the location of harvest. A lot of the other information is pretty super straightforward, you know, to step through. So again, we remind folks it's mandatory if you're having trouble, if you're confused, if you're worried a call the phone number. You can identify the locations online. You can see where we're doing our disease surveillance. There's DNR staff available. You can go talk to those folks to get assistance. So we want to be there to help folks. Is it important beyond that? Yeah I mean it's it it's it is an important factor of us monitoring deer harvest. You know, Er

Eric

And I think it's interesting for hunters, too, because they can kind of follow that season almost play by play as harvest reports are coming in, so they can look county to county and see how many bucks are harvested, how many does are harvested, and things of that nature, which is just really fascinating to be able to watch the season unfold before your very eyes, which is something that we did not have in the past. Me, I know personally I find that incredibly interesting, and if anybody wants to look at that dashboard, they can just go to michigan.gov/deer, click on that harvest reporting information there and see it. See the season play out hour by hour.

Brent

Yeah that's right. And then from that deer page and there's also publications at the bottom. And you can find the 2024 summary. You know again we have the harvest---mail survey report. And then we also have the summary of the online reporting. So there's tons of details in there. You know some people really enjoy digging into the data and info it's all there. But yeah you're right Eric the live dashboard. Just keep a look at as it unfolds through the year. It can be another intriguing outlet for many people to scratch that itch about, you know, deer and deer hunting knowledge.

Rachel

I have a feeling I'm sitting here with two data junkies who really enjoy digging through reports and data dashboards. Something tells me...

Brent

What are you saying? Well, you know, with that it's it's easy to get into the data and it's important to talk about things like, you know, chronic wasting disease and bovine tuberculosis. And these are serious issues that we content with in our deer program. But it's also a really important reminder at this time of year. Again, as we started this, this is a great time of year in Michigan. We're fortunate this is this is our 131st year that licensed deer hunters are taking to the field in our state, and although we've experienced all kinds of different challenges and opportunities over that time, you know, one of the important things is just take the time to enjoy yourself. If you're someone who likes to unplug and use deer hunting to get away from all the other stuff that's swirling around your head, then unplug and enjoy the solitude. If you enjoy going out with friends and family or new people and experiencing, you know, deer camp or whatever social experience that deer hunting might be for you, then enjoy

Rachel

Yeah, that is an excellent parting sentiment, Brent. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. We really do appreciate you giving us an update on hunting conditions and what hunters can expect this fall, and wishing them a safe and successful hunt. We appreciate your time.

Brent

Yeah, thanks for having me. Happy to join you anytime.

Speaker

Are you looking for first class waterfowl hunting opportunities? Then explore the wetland wonders. The seven premier managed waterfowl hunt areas located in southern Michigan. Daily drawings are conducted locally for free hunting zone permits throughout the season, consisting of over 27,000 acres of managed waterfowl habitat, including marsh, flooded crops and dry land. The wetland wonders are the destination for new and experienced waterfowlers alike. Find out more about a high quality outdoor recreational experience at michigan.gov/wetlandwonders.

Rachel

Now is your opportunity to win a WildTalk Podcast mug. As a thank you to our listeners, we're giving away a mug or two every episode. This month's winners are Terra Mole-Carr and Terry Bailey. Congratulations to you both. They answered the question: What is Michigan's state game mammal? The answer is the White-tailed deer. To be entered into the drawing this month, test your wildlife knowledge and answer our wildlife quiz question. This month's question is: What is the name of the reflective layer in the eyes of Whitetail-deer, and many other vertebrates, that enhances their ability to see during the night? Email your name and answer to us at DNR-Wildlife@michigan.gov. To be entered for a chance to win a mug. Be sure to include the subject line as 'Mug Me' and submit your answers to us by November 15th. We'll announce winners and answers on next month's podcast, so be sure to listen in to see if you've won and for the next quiz question.

Speaker 1

Michigan conservation officers are working hard to protect and keep the outdoors safe for current and future generations. If you witness a natural resources violation, you can call or text the 'Report All Poaching' hotline 24 hours a day at 1-800-292-7800, or fill out the complaint form available at michigan.gov/rap. If you would like more information on becoming a Conservation Officer, click on 'Become a CO' at michigan.gov/conservationofficers.

Rachel

Well thank you everyone for joining us again on this November edition of the WildTalk Podcast. Remember, if you have questions about wildlife or hunting, you can call (517) 284-9453 or email us at DNR-Wildlife@michigan.gov. We will see you back here in December.

Eric

This has been the WildTalk Podcast, your monthly podcast airing the first of each month and offering insights into the world of wildlife across the state of Michigan. You can reach the Wildlife Division at (517) 284-9453 or DNR-Wildlife@michigan.gov.